|
Author
|
Topic: The Existence of Jesus Christ
|
robinrohan
Inactive Member
|
|
Message 231 of 378 (221047)
07-01-2005 12:37 AM
|
Reply to: Message 230 by Kapyong
07-01-2005 12:13 AM
|
|
The style of the New Testament
The literary style of the New Testament is such that I would find it very difficult to believe that someone corresponding to Jesus in some sense never existed. The details are realistic, not mythic (ignoring the supernatural parts). All the references to particular places and times is very unlike mythic writings. There are also comments, that if it were all fraudulent, should have been omitted by those who came later, such as the comment by Jesus that he would return within the lifetime of those he was talking to.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 230 by Kapyong, posted 07-01-2005 12:13 AM | | Kapyong has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 232 by Kapyong, posted 07-01-2005 1:37 AM | | robinrohan has replied |
|
robinrohan
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 234 of 378 (221071)
07-01-2005 2:41 AM
|
Reply to: Message 232 by Kapyong
07-01-2005 1:37 AM
|
|
Re: The style of the New Testament
I don't "believe" in Jesus in a religious sense, but I do in a historical sense. It does not have the flavor of a novel. I've read many novels. That's my expertise.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 232 by Kapyong, posted 07-01-2005 1:37 AM | | Kapyong has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 235 by lfen, posted 07-01-2005 2:48 AM | | robinrohan has replied | | | Message 239 by Kapyong, posted 07-01-2005 3:30 AM | | robinrohan has replied |
|
robinrohan
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 236 of 378 (221075)
07-01-2005 2:50 AM
|
Reply to: Message 235 by lfen
07-01-2005 2:48 AM
|
|
Re: The style of the New Testament
The poster above was comparing it to novels. He mentions several.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 235 by lfen, posted 07-01-2005 2:48 AM | | lfen has not replied |
|
robinrohan
Inactive Member
|
Re: The style of the New Testament
And Ifen, there were many things written at that time that were very like novels--only there were written in verse.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 236 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2005 2:50 AM | | robinrohan has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 238 by lfen, posted 07-01-2005 3:13 AM | | robinrohan has replied |
|
robinrohan
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 240 of 378 (221088)
07-01-2005 3:36 AM
|
Reply to: Message 239 by Kapyong
07-01-2005 3:30 AM
|
|
Re: The style of the New Testament
I did not call it a novel. Did you not compare it to novels ?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 239 by Kapyong, posted 07-01-2005 3:30 AM | | Kapyong has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 241 by ramoss, posted 07-01-2005 9:01 AM | | robinrohan has not replied | | | Message 247 by Kapyong, posted 07-01-2005 8:08 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
|
robinrohan
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 242 of 378 (221116)
07-01-2005 10:06 AM
|
Reply to: Message 238 by lfen
07-01-2005 3:13 AM
|
|
Re: The style of the New Testament
Question is was the Jesus a historical person, or a mystical experience Paul and others had of a spiritual person. By this reasoning, why stop with Jesus? Why may not Paul be fictitious as well?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 238 by lfen, posted 07-01-2005 3:13 AM | | lfen has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 244 by lfen, posted 07-01-2005 10:42 AM | | robinrohan has replied |
|
robinrohan
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 243 of 378 (221122)
07-01-2005 10:40 AM
|
|
|
To me it makes much more sense to think that Jesus was a local leader of a sect, whose followers had come to believe was a messiah. When he died, it was a bitter disappointment, so they came up with a reason as to why he died--as a ransom to save us from sin. What was an off-beat Jewish sect gradually separated from Judaism altogether. It makes more sense to think that than to think that this story of the historical Jesus is totally fictitious and that non-Biblical references are all doctored up.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 248 by Kapyong, posted 07-01-2005 8:18 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
|
robinrohan
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 246 of 378 (221142)
07-01-2005 11:50 AM
|
Reply to: Message 244 by lfen
07-01-2005 10:42 AM
|
|
Re: The style of the New Testament
Anyway, I do think you might find Doherty's site interesting. I do. Thanks, Ifen. It is very interesting and a lot of it makes sense to me. But somewhere along the line, somebody had to write a "novel" by Doherty's reasoning. Here it is from Doherty:
What did Mark do? He crafted a ministry which moved from Galilee to Jerusalem, now the site of Jesus' death. He virtually re-invented the Apostles out of early, now-legendary figures in the Christ movement; they served mostly instructional purposes. He brought into the Jesus orbit all the figures and concepts floating about in the Christian air, like Son of God, Messiah, Son of David, the apocalyptic Son of Man. Most important of all, he had to craft the story of Jesus' passion. Some suggest that Mark used an earlier, more primitive fashioning of Jesus' trial and execution, one John later used as well. Others think that all the famous elements of our passion story are purely Markan inventions: the scene in Gethsemane, Judas the betrayer, the denial by Peter, the actual details of Jesus' trial and crucifixion, the story of the empty tomb. Considering that no concrete evidence surfaces in the record of any pre-Markan passion story, the second option is the most likely. We owe the most enduring tale Western culture has produced to the literary genius of Mark. So did Mark believe the story he wrote? Apparently not, since he made it up. So it's an intentional fraud?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 244 by lfen, posted 07-01-2005 10:42 AM | | lfen has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 251 by Kapyong, posted 07-01-2005 8:47 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
|
robinrohan
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 250 of 378 (221268)
07-01-2005 8:45 PM
|
Reply to: Message 248 by Kapyong
07-01-2005 8:18 PM
|
|
Robin,
you have shown you don't understand these issues and arguments at all.
May I politely suggest you actually study the issues so you can follow the arguments properly? Thank you so much for your advice.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 248 by Kapyong, posted 07-01-2005 8:18 PM | | Kapyong has not replied |
|
robinrohan
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 252 of 378 (221270)
07-01-2005 9:06 PM
|
Reply to: Message 251 by Kapyong
07-01-2005 8:47 PM
|
|
Re: Spiritual Literature, not fraud
My prediction - you will never deal with the issues I raised. Instead you will pick nits, on and on, about it being a "fraud" and/or a "novel". Well, it has to be one or the other. You know, a fictitious piece might have as its goal the teaching of a lesson.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 251 by Kapyong, posted 07-01-2005 8:47 PM | | Kapyong has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 253 by lfen, posted 07-01-2005 9:54 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
|
robinrohan
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 254 of 378 (221308)
07-02-2005 9:58 AM
|
Reply to: Message 253 by lfen
07-01-2005 9:54 PM
|
|
Re: Spiritual Literature, not fraud
If you are comparing Shakespeare's histories to Mark's account of Jesus, then Jesus existed, just as Henry IV existed. But if it is complete fiction, then Mark either wanted it to be seen as fiction, and everyone accepted it as fiction, or he wanted it to be seen as the truth. In the latter case, If Jesus never existed, it would be a fraud. This message has been edited by robinrohan, 07-02-2005 09:00 AM This message has been edited by robinrohan, 07-02-2005 09:00 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 253 by lfen, posted 07-01-2005 9:54 PM | | lfen has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 255 by lfen, posted 07-02-2005 11:58 AM | | robinrohan has not replied |
|
™ Version 4.2