For Wolf - Prophecy, Coincidence, or Made Up?

By that same logic, I could add the "Left Behind" series to the selection of books in the Bible, and say "Look, it must be true! It's teh prophecy fulfilled!!11!"("Left Behind," btw, is a series of books about the rapture and fulfillment of the prophecies of Revelation)A book cannot prove anything by its mere existance, and it certainly cannot prove itself to be true.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

Prove that it's not. We know only that the universe exists. What reason do you have to believe that it needed a "cause?"

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

OMG. You did NOT just bring THIS bit of tripe into the argument!You wouldn't even believe how hard I'm laughing right now.Here's more of that same logic:

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Math Proves Christ's Resurrection?

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It is faith, not proof, that makes Christians believe in Jesus Christ's resurrection, the central tenet of the religion. Until now.

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Oxford University professor Richard Swinburne, a leading philosopher of religion, has seemingly done the impossible. Using logic and mathematics, he has created a formula that he says shows a 97 percent certainty that Jesus Christ was resurrected by God the Father, report The Age and Catholic News.

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This stunning conclusion was made based on a series of complex calculations grounded in the following logic:

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1. The probably of God's existence is one in two. That is, God either exists or doesn't.

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2. The probability that God became incarnate, that is embodied in human form, is also one in two.

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3. The evidence for God's existence is an argument for the resurrection.

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4. The chance of Christ's resurrection not being reported by the gospels has a probability of one in 10.

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5. Considering all these factors together, there is a one in 1,000 chance that the resurrection is not true.

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"New Testament scholars say the only evidences are witnesses in the four gospels. That's only five percent of the evidence," Swinburne said in a lecture he gave at the Australian Catholic University in Melbourne. "We can't judge the question of the resurrection unless we ask first whether there's reason to suppose there is a God. Secondly, if we have reason to suppose he would become incarnate, and thirdly, if he did, whether he would live the sort of life Jesus did." He says that even Jesus' life is not enough proof. However, the resurrection is "God's signature," which shows "his approval of Jesus' teaching."

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The calculations that Swinburne says prove the resurrection are detailed in his book, "The Resurrection of God Incarnate."

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The math in these books is total bunk. They assume such things as "the probability of God's existance is 1 in 2." As in He either exists or He doesn't. But that's not the case - Either He exists, or Zeus exists, or there is no God, or there are many gods, or an infinite amount of other possibilities that are equally likely. The actual probability of God's existance is 1 in infinity! And it's circular logic to boot.Not to mention you are still using a book to prove itself. If a book fulfills its own prophecies, that's not so impressive - I can write a book that makes some predictions, and in the sequel I can write in the fulfillment of those "prophecies." It still doesns't prove that they actually happened, or if the characters even exist at all. All written in the same book as the prophecies themselves. You need supporting evidence Tal. You need to prove that these prophecies applied to Jesus, that Jesus even existed, that Jesus did the things in the prophecies you apply to Him... A book can SAY whatever the author wants, Tal. Until there is outside supporting evidence, the book is nothing but a fairy tale. Faith is all well and good, but it doesn't hold up in a debate where evidence is required.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

And what about the rest of my post? Is that a concession?

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

Red Herring, I believe.The existance or nonexistance of George Washington is wholly irrelevant to the existance or nonexistance of Jesus.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

Well, the guy in the quote I provided was, as I recall, a philosophy professor. Obviously he should stick with that, and leave the probabilities to the math majors.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

By all means, SHOW me where my logic is flawed. I can show you several ways the gentlemen quoted WERE wrong in their probability calculations.Are you seriously proposing that there is a 1 in 2 chance that God exists? That all other religions throughout history are somehow less likely in the absence of additional evidence?Please, give us more than a cryptic and insulting one-liner to work with here. Otherwise you're just making personal attacks, a clear violation of the forum rules.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

That's exactly what I said. I'd really like to know where he thinks I'm mistaken.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

It IS built in. The probability of something existing when there is no evidence to suggest that it does is near-zero. God's existance is just as likely as the existance of the gods of any other religion, or an infinite number of theoretical worlds where no gods exist that similarly have no evidence to support their existance.Therefore, the existance of a single, all-powerful God is one possibility amongst an infinite number of equal possibilities.Note that the math in the quote I provided is also wrong, even if you bypass the flawed assumptions - there is a 50% chance that God does not exist - but there is a 97% chance that He was raised from the dead? That doesn't make any sense at all.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

How's this for Christianity?

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For over three hundred years the rulers of the Roman Empire worshipped the god Mithras. Known throughout Europe and Asia by the names Mithra, Mitra, Meitros, Mihr, Mehr, and Meher, the veneration of this god began around 2800 years ago in Persia, where it was soon moved west and became imbedded with Babylonian doctrines. There is mention of Mithra or Mitra (et al) before 2800, but only as a minor diety and without much information. It appears to be after 2800 when Mithra is transformed and starts to play a major role among the gods. The faith spread east through India to China, and reached west throughout the entire length of the Roman frontier; from Scotland to the Sahara Desert, and from Spain to the Black Sea. Sites of Mithraic worship have been found in Britain, Italy, Romania, Germany, Hungary, Bulgaria, Turkey, Persia, Armenia, Syria, Israel, and North Africa. In Rome, more than a hundred inscriptions dedicated to Mithra have been found, in addition to 75 sculpture fragments, and a series of Mithraic temples situated in all parts of the city. One of the largest Mithraic temples built in Italy now lies under the present site of the Church of St. Clemente, near the Colosseum in Rome. The widespread popularity and appeal of Mithraism as the final and most refined form of pre-Christian paganism was discussed by the Greek historian Herodotus, the Greek biographer Plutarch, the neoplatonic philosopher Porphyry, the Gnostic heretic Origen, and St. Jerome the church Father. Mithraism was quite often noted by many historians for its many astonishing similarities to Christianity. The faithful referred to Mithra as "the Light of the World", symbol of truth, justice, and loyalty. He was mediator between heaven and earth and was a member of a Holy Trinity. According to Persian mythology, Mithras was born of a virgin given the title 'Mother of God'. The god remained celibate throughout his life, and valued self-control, renunciation and resistance to sensuality among his worshippers. Mithras represented a system of ethics in which brotherhood was encouraged in order to unify against the forces of evil. The worshippers of Mithras held strong beliefs in a celestial heaven and an infernal hell. They believed that the benevolent powers of the god would sympathize with their suffering and grant them the final justice of immortality and eternal salvation in the world to come. They looked forward to a final day of Judgment in which the dead would resurrect, and to a final conflict that would destroy the existing order of all things to bring about the triumph of light over darkness.

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Purification through a ritualistic baptism was required of the faithful, who also took part in a ceremony in which they drank wine and ate bread to symbolize the body and blood of the god. Sundays were held sacred, and the birth of the god was celebrated annually on December the 25th. After the earthly mission of this god had been accomplished, he took part in a Last Supper with his companions before ascending to heaven, to forever protect the faithful from above.
However, it would be a vast oversimplification to suggest that Mithraism was the single forerunner of early Christianity. Aside from Christ and Mithras, there were plenty of other deities (such as Osiris, Tammuz, Adonis, Balder, Attis, and Dionysus) said to have died and resurrected. Many classical heroic figures, such as Hercules, Perseus, and Theseus, were said to have been born through the union of a virgin mother and divine father. Virtually every pagan religious practice and festivity that couldn't be suppressed or driven underground was eventually incorporated into the rites of Christianity as it spread across Europe and throughout the world.

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Mithra-ism certainly makes the Bible look like a close copy of a much older religion.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

The last "meaningful reply" (and I use the terms loosely) that you have made in this, your own thread, was 2 pages and nearly 24 hours ago. Meanwhile, you have been posting in other threads whuile seeming to ignore your own. It looks to us, Tal, like you don't have a leg to stand on in this argument and are simply retreating.Either post a meaningful rebuttal for the arguments against you, or conceed so that we can all move on. B

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

"It's my OPINION, so you can't say I'm wrong!"You know, my then-13 year old stepdaughter used that one.As Jar said, you DO have to defend your position. Especially since he has provided pretty convincing evidence that you are flat wrong.You can have the "opinion" that the sky is green with yellow polkadots and that the moon is made of cheese, but you would still be wrong.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

The problem is that you are wrong.Jar has soundly proven that your "prophesies" were talking about something completely different, and had nothing to do with Jesus.If I say there are 3 differnt ways you can look at the color of the sky:1) it's blue becuase the Earth is wrapped in blue celophane
2) the air itself glows blue all the time
3) the specific chemical makeup of the air in the atmosphere filters out certain wavelenghts of light, and blue, being the shortest wavelength, gets through to us. This gives the appearance of a blue sky.You could say "Well, I picked number one, what am I defending? There are three ways to look at it, and this is my opinion!"But you would be flat wrong. Your opinion would be based on false facts. There is no celophane layer to the atmoshpere, and we can readily prove that. The "prophesies" you are using were not prophesies at all, and Jar has readily proven that..You can't hide behind opinion. Opinions can be wrong.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

The Jews of the time, as I understand it, also believed that the Messiah would be a strong military leader who would lead their people to freedom from Roman oppression. This was the general picture painted by those supposed prophesies you have mentioned.Obviously, if Jesus was the Messiah, then the Jews of the period were wrong. Just like you.You're using an appeal to authority. "The Jews though it was, so it MUST have been!" When your proposal stands on its own, it is soundly crushed by Jar's additional evidence.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

And yet there is dispute as to the exact date of Jesus birth and death (assuming they happened). Nobody is sure exactly when it happened. Or do you have conclusive evidence to support that Jesus dies exactly in line with your supposed prophesy?

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.