For Wolf - Prophecy, Coincidence, or Made Up?

This is a public forum, if you want a one on one with wolf then propose a great debate, until then all posts are open to replies from anyone. Well, not just silly to me, but silly to any free thinking individual.You do know that this approach means that all books are true? I suppose all Christians do, but this doesn't mean that a single word in it is true.Also, an author sitting copying from an earlier book is hardly impressive! I do believe he existed.How do you know Jesus was born in Bethlehem?Brian.

No, this isn't very difficult, which is why I can't figure out why you are having a hard time getting it. This is a public message board. Anyone can respond to any thread, except for those designated as a "Great Debate". Unless you and Wolf agree to a "Great Debate" and have it approved by the Admins, you cannot expect to have a completely private conversation.

Thread derailing. I'll respond when Wolf does. Thank you all for pissing in my wheaties.This message has been edited by Tal, 08-09-2005 02:22 PM

---

"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

Since Tal cannot actually take his Ball and run with it - where shall we start?I guess the first port of call would be any historical evidence (NOT the bible) that offers supports for any of those claims?Anyone?

I'll run with the ball Charles, but not at your convenience.

---

"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

What does it matter if wolf or someone else questions you, surely your answers will be the same?Brian

By that same logic, I could add the "Left Behind" series to the selection of books in the Bible, and say "Look, it must be true! It's teh prophecy fulfilled!!11!"("Left Behind," btw, is a series of books about the rapture and fulfillment of the prophecies of Revelation)A book cannot prove anything by its mere existance, and it certainly cannot prove itself to be true.

---

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

Part of the problem with the 'prophecies' that are found in the Tanakah, or old testament is that they were refering to something else entirely, and not supposed to be refering to the messiah. For example, the Isaiah passages, if you read it in context, were discussing the nation of Israel.The Psalms were talking about David.. and were not a messanic prophecy.Part of the problem also is translation, a change in expectations, and also the push to 'shoehorn' a random phrase into a prophecy. Those random phrases are sometimes mistranslated, taken out of context, and just plain misapplied to try to prove Jesus is the Messiah. It is easy to take random phrases in the bible, and then say it proves someone is the messiah. It has been done with elvis.The translation also effects what is in the passages.. because many of the translators are inserting their bias of looking for the messiah into passages that it isn't appropriate. For example, Zechariah 9:9's
Jewish translation is

quote:

---

Rejoice Greatinly, Fair Zion; raise a shout, fair jerusalum! Lo, for you king is coming to you,. He is victorius, triumphant, yet humber, ridding on an ass. On a donkey fouled by a she-ass.

---

Notice, you pointed to a quote that has the world 'salvation' it in.It is far more likely that this was shoehorned into place.(I also don't see Jesus fullfilling the hope of banishing the chariots from Ephraim either). It is taking one phrase out of context, then writing to that phrase to make it into a prophecy.YOu also have to wonder why SO many of these alledged prophecies that are allegedly a predictoin for the future were written in the past tense.So many of the Isaiah passages, if you read just before or just after the passages that are insisted as being messanic, you will notice references to the people of israel, not a specfic person.There also is the cultural differnce about what 'salvation' means to the Jews, and what a prophecy is to the Jews. For the Jewish religion, salvation is for THIS life, not the next one. Also, the prophecy is not so much a prediction for the future, but rather a message from god to warn, or to instruct. A sign for the future in prophecy was rather rare. There was a sense of immediancy, not for something 600 years or more into the future.

What are you trying to say, ramoss? Do you seriously expect us to believe that the Bronze Age Hebrews were not essentially 21st century American Baptists, except still waiting for the First Coming?

Then you believe it coincidence.

---

"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

Not only were they not 21st century Baptists, they weren't werent even first century Jews.

Prove that it's not. We know only that the universe exists. What reason do you have to believe that it needed a "cause?"

---

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

The evidence presents itself. He fulfilled more than 8. To keep this in perspective, we are talking about specifics, such as riding into Jerusalem on a donkey, thirst while being executed and given vinegar, people casting lots for his clothes, being betrayed by a close friend, being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, that silver used to buy a potter's field, being buried in a richman's grave....so on and so forth.

---

"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

don't we actually have to see some evidence that he did any of those things before we worry about that bit?

quote:

---

The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight prophecies, 'we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 10 to the 17th power." That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. "Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell."

---

em...got the working for that? I'd be very interested to see them......A full table of this "evidence" can be found at:http://www.fellowshiponline.org/biblestudies/Proof.htmThis message has been edited by Charles Knight, 09-Aug-2005 03:43 PM