Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,821 Year: 3,078/9,624 Month: 923/1,588 Week: 106/223 Day: 4/13 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Secularly Verifiable Evidence for Biblical Inerrancy
SirPimpsalot 
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 99 (152247)
10-23-2004 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Coragyps
10-22-2004 5:56 PM


Re: The Science of the Bible
Let's start with talking snakes and asses houses and garments that catch leprosy and get "greenish or reddish strakes" as a result, speckled poles by the water trough causing goats to have speckled kids......
Miraculous events are not blatantly unscientific.
Let's leave the very plain descriptions of the Earth as immovable and the Flood story for another time.
Earth as immovable? And we've already gone over the flood story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Coragyps, posted 10-22-2004 5:56 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Coragyps, posted 10-23-2004 10:59 AM SirPimpsalot has replied
 Message 53 by Coragyps, posted 10-23-2004 11:52 AM SirPimpsalot has replied

  
SirPimpsalot 
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 99 (152250)
10-23-2004 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by PaulK
10-22-2004 6:52 PM


Re: The Science of the Bible
1) I didn't say SUNlight, I said DAYlight. And that's what I meant. Clearly the author of Genesis didn't realise that the Sun was the source of daylight - and moonlight
You're really reaching here, Paul.......I think any five year old knows the sun is the source of day light.
Either the answer that I suggested or the simple idea that temporal duration is of no great concern to an eternal being make more sense. It certainly does not imply that God could be considered "outside of time" (and just as well !).
How is the concept of the Incarnation being present with God before God was Incarnated not a suggestion of God being outside of time?
3) No the Earth isn't "hanging" on anything
"From an anthropological point of view"..........you take a man from five thousand years ago into space, show him the Earth, ask him what it's hanging on, and he'll say "the Earth is hung on nothing".
4) I didn't realise that I was talking to a Flatlander. In the three dimensional world I exist in spheres are not circles.
Let me get this straight........because the anicient Hebrews didn't have more advanced scientific terminology than the average layman today, they couldn't speak scientific truth?
5) Well without knowing more it is impossible to evaluate the claim. The only clear evidence of location I can see is the reference to the Tigris and Euphrates.
Again, nice duck of the two other rivers........I've never heard anyone claim the location of the source of those four rivers as anywhere but North Africa.
IF you read Genesis 1 literally it does say that nothing much greatly preceded the creation of man.
But I don't read it literally.........and nothing therein makes me think I should read it literally.
Glacial meltings certianly didn't flood the entire planet
Scientific fact, every area of the world, from an anthropological point of view, was flooded........
nor did they kill all air-breathing life except for the occupants of one large boat. If the Noah story has anything to do with the Glacial floodings the story has been exaggerated considerably.
What, you expect God to break it down step by step for Noah, and just confuse the crap out of him. "Hey, Noah, this is God........look here, homeboy, there are these big hunks of ice hundreds of miles north of here........they're melting.....as they melt, they will destroy every region you're familiar with, but not literally the whole world" etc., etc., or "Noah, the whole world's getting flooded.....grab your crap and let's roll.........."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by PaulK, posted 10-22-2004 6:52 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Coragyps, posted 10-23-2004 11:02 AM SirPimpsalot has replied
 Message 50 by jar, posted 10-23-2004 11:11 AM SirPimpsalot has replied
 Message 52 by PaulK, posted 10-23-2004 11:35 AM SirPimpsalot has replied
 Message 84 by DBlevins, posted 10-23-2004 8:54 PM SirPimpsalot has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 48 of 99 (152251)
10-23-2004 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by SirPimpsalot
10-23-2004 10:44 AM


Re: The Science of the Bible
Yes, Earth as immovable:
1 Chronicles 16:30: He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.
Psalm 93:1: Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...
Psalm 96:10: He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...
Psalm 104:5: Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.
Isaiah 45:18: ...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...
And the only "gone over" the Flood story we've done is to gloss over the parts about 15 cubits above the highest mountains and all life that had breath in in nostrils being destroyed. The Black Sea filling up ain't that.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by SirPimpsalot, posted 10-23-2004 10:44 AM SirPimpsalot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by SirPimpsalot, posted 10-23-2004 12:51 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 49 of 99 (152252)
10-23-2004 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by SirPimpsalot
10-23-2004 10:57 AM


Re: The Science of the Bible
Scientific fact, every area of the world, from an anthropological point of view, was flooded........
Bologna.
Support this claim - did the Tibetans flood out? The ancestors of the Incas?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by SirPimpsalot, posted 10-23-2004 10:57 AM SirPimpsalot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by SirPimpsalot, posted 10-23-2004 12:57 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 50 of 99 (152255)
10-23-2004 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by SirPimpsalot
10-23-2004 10:57 AM


Re: The Science of the Bible
You're really reaching here, Paul.......I think any five year old knows the sun is the source of day light.
Well, it's pretty obvious that GOD didn't.
Genesis 1
1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Notice that this is daylight and night.
Day and Night. Light and Dark.
But where is the sun?
14: And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16: And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17: And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18: And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19: And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Why the sun shows up several days later.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by SirPimpsalot, posted 10-23-2004 10:57 AM SirPimpsalot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by SirPimpsalot, posted 10-23-2004 1:04 PM jar has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 51 of 99 (152257)
10-23-2004 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by SirPimpsalot
10-23-2004 7:40 AM


Man is the only animal on Earth for which there aren't a multitude of cousins and closely related species.
False. Man is far more closely related to other great apes than, off the top of my head:
*aardvarks, echidnas, and platypuses are to anything else at all
*two-toed sloths are to three-toed sloths, or either of them are to anteaters or armadillos
*the three species of elephant are to anything else
* the pronghorn antelope is to any other ungulate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by SirPimpsalot, posted 10-23-2004 7:40 AM SirPimpsalot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by SirPimpsalot, posted 10-23-2004 1:09 PM Coragyps has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 52 of 99 (152258)
10-23-2004 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by SirPimpsalot
10-23-2004 10:57 AM


Re: The Science of the Bible
1) I'm not reaching. Try reading Genesis 1 instead of making assumptions about what it says. Want to explain why Gnesis 1:4-5 ISN'T about day and night ?
2) "before" is a temporal concept. It therefore cannot apply to something "outside of time"
3) Why would this man say that the Earth was hanging on anything ? Come on you can't really claim that this is any real indication of adcanced knowledge.
4) So your argument is that the Hebrews were too stupid to tell the difference between a circle and a sphere ? The Hebrews certainly DID have vocabulary that would have let them indicate that the world was spherical (a word for "ball" for instance). And stll Isaiah uses the word for "circle".
5) I'm not ducking the other two - but the origin of the Tigris and Euphrates is NOT in North Africa - the rivers don't even reach there, they flow into the Persian Gulf, from a northerly direction.
As for your equation of the glacial meltings I have to tell you that it takes more than your wanting something to be true to make it a "scientific fact". Nor do I think that the differences between glacial meltings and the flood story can be explained by God not telling Noah all the details - Noah would have been better advised to move to higher ground, and he certainly wouldn't need to take every "kind" of animal since most of them would survive just fine, thank you, without the ark.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by SirPimpsalot, posted 10-23-2004 10:57 AM SirPimpsalot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by SirPimpsalot, posted 10-23-2004 1:31 PM PaulK has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 53 of 99 (152261)
10-23-2004 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by SirPimpsalot
10-23-2004 10:44 AM


Re: The Science of the Bible
Miraculous events are not blatantly unscientific.
I'm not sure what you mean by that, other than "Is not!"
Please find me a citation in the scientific literature where Mycobacterium leprae has 1)been cultured on plaster 2)been cultured in either the warp or the woof of fabric of either the woolen or the linen sort 3)been eliminated in an infected human by the killing of pigeons in a bowl over water.
As an alternative, run these experiments yourself, of find an "inerrantist" ministry that would like to sponsor a university research program in the field.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by SirPimpsalot, posted 10-23-2004 10:44 AM SirPimpsalot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by SirPimpsalot, posted 10-23-2004 1:13 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
fnord
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 99 (152264)
10-23-2004 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by SirPimpsalot
10-23-2004 10:20 AM


You do realize that ancient Hebrew didn't even have quotation marks, don't you?
No, I didn't know that. But then you don't need quotation marks to describe the shape of the earth. You just need a word for sphere, which they had.
These weren't scientists........they were holy men, to whom "sphere" and "circle" were synonyms.
Again, in Hebrew, as in English, they are different words, with different meanings. If they didn't know the difference, how do you know they meant sphere and not circle? Aye, there's the rub. Let me get this straight. You claim:
- these holy men, God inspired and all, wrote circle
- but they meant sphere
- and sphere miraculously predicts scientific discoveries of centuries later.
Now why do I have a hard time believing this?
And finally, from another post:
I've never heard anyone claim the location of the source of those four rivers as anywhere but North Africa.
Have you tried looking Euphrates and Tigris up in an atlas?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by SirPimpsalot, posted 10-23-2004 10:20 AM SirPimpsalot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by SirPimpsalot, posted 10-23-2004 1:42 PM fnord has not replied

  
SirPimpsalot 
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 99 (152265)
10-23-2004 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Cold Foreign Object
10-22-2004 7:22 PM


Re: The Science of the Bible
The pot calling the kettle black:
Somehow a fish came ashore and evolved into a land animal and somehow a land animal grew wings and evolved into a bird.
As to how any of this came to be/biogenesis - evos run and hide.
Good point.........when it comes to supernatural events, materialists scoff because they've never SEEN a supernatural event occur........well, I've never SEEN macroevolution.......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-22-2004 7:22 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Coragyps, posted 10-23-2004 12:29 PM SirPimpsalot has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 56 of 99 (152267)
10-23-2004 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by SirPimpsalot
10-23-2004 12:20 PM


Re: The Science of the Bible
well, I've never SEEN macroevolution.......
Then perhaps you should read up on palaeontology. Jennifer Clack's Gaining Ground is possibly at your library - technical, but completely full of examples, with pictures, of "fish" becoming land critters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by SirPimpsalot, posted 10-23-2004 12:20 PM SirPimpsalot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by SirPimpsalot, posted 10-23-2004 12:44 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
SirPimpsalot 
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 99 (152273)
10-23-2004 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by AdminJar
10-23-2004 10:42 AM


A circle is NOT a sphere.
In laymen's terms (and I don't think any Biblical scribes had PHDs), it certainly is.........
Functional hemispherectomy does NOT entail removing half the brain.
"Functional hemispherectomy: This is a variation of a hemispherectomy, a radical procedure in which one entire hemisphere, or one half of the brain, is removed." WebMD - Better information. Better health.
Who's your daddy? Don't waste my time looking up links because you don't stay current.......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by AdminJar, posted 10-23-2004 10:42 AM AdminJar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Asgara, posted 10-23-2004 3:24 PM SirPimpsalot has not replied
 Message 77 by jar, posted 10-23-2004 5:19 PM SirPimpsalot has not replied

  
SirPimpsalot 
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 99 (152274)
10-23-2004 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Coragyps
10-23-2004 12:29 PM


Re: The Science of the Bible
Then perhaps you should read up on palaeontology. Jennifer Clack's Gaining Ground is possibly at your library - technical, but completely full of examples, with pictures, of "fish" becoming land critters.
Let me rephrase my statement.......we've never seen NATURALISTIC macroevolution........

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Coragyps, posted 10-23-2004 12:29 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
SirPimpsalot 
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 99 (152275)
10-23-2004 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Coragyps
10-23-2004 10:59 AM


Re: The Science of the Bible
Yes, Earth as immovable:
1 Chronicles 16:30: He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.
Psalm 93:1: Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...
Psalm 96:10: He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...
Psalm 104:5: Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.
Isaiah 45:18: ...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...
Once again, from the anthropological view point, the Earth IS immovable........
And the only "gone over" the Flood story we've done is to gloss over the parts about 15 cubits above the highest mountains and all life that had breath in in nostrils being destroyed.
And I'm sure that in the region where Noah lived that's exactly what happened.....
The Black Sea filling up ain't that.....
I don't know how deep the Black Sea is, but I'd be willing to bet that it's deeper than Mt. Ararat (if that's the mountain Noah landed on, I don't recall) is tall.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Coragyps, posted 10-23-2004 10:59 AM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by fnord, posted 10-23-2004 1:12 PM SirPimpsalot has replied

  
SirPimpsalot 
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 99 (152276)
10-23-2004 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Coragyps
10-23-2004 11:02 AM


Re: The Science of the Bible
Bologna. Support this claim - did the Tibetans flood out? The ancestors of the Incas?
I don't know about the Tibetans, but the flooding is thought to have effected much of South America......in fact, it's been proposed that the flooding is what caused the extinction of American elephants and other such animals.........there's even cause to believe that there was a pre-Incan Meso-American civilization established which was obliterated by these floods........

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Coragyps, posted 10-23-2004 11:02 AM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Quetzal, posted 10-23-2004 1:53 PM SirPimpsalot has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024