Re: Substantiating The Validity Of Bible Prophecy

You said cashless society buz. Now in the typical bait and switch of teh prophesy game, pea, pea, where is the pea, you drop that claim and make yet another.Sorry Buz but it is all just a shell game. This is always the case with the prophecies game. When I pull up the scripture and show that it says nothing like what you claim you simply dance away and change the claim. Further more, if you read Revelations 17 (ain't it fun when you can just pick and choose passages and pretend they mean anything) which can be found here the Ten nations obviously refers to the US (the Beast) and the G-10 Group of Nations, Belgium, Canada, France, Italy, Japan, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, and the United States as well as the Banks of Germany and Sweden. Yet more shuck and jive talk.As for the rest, they have been fulfilled annually, some for as long as there has been civilization, the others since the first dry land appeared.As a Christian I can confidently say that all of the End-Times prophecy is just bullshit. The things in Revelations happened 18-1900 years ago. The end time comes for each of us in turn, and that is it.It really is as simple as that.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Jehovah god the father makes the decision as to when his son returns. I'm sure he has good reason for doing things as he sees fit. It's useless to argue about that. Did you read the thread? I still say it's Russia and the Muslim block nations allied. They will be the invading force. Imo, the eastern forces will move in to capture the prize of world domination resulting in the enemies of Israel killing off one another as the texts state in both OT and NT. Hal Lindsey still has Russia allied with the Muslim block as the major invading force last I heard. There has been no cast change that I'm aware of. The major fundamentalist prophecy teachers included Russia then and now as well. They have all always factored in the Eastern army also. Just how the Eastern army plays out is quite vague, but scripture definitely factors them in. This is where I differ with the major prophecy teachers. Imo, Armageddon is not Megeddo. It is a descriptive term for the Valley of Jehosaphat or the valley of the brook Kedron which flows through between Jerusalem and the Mount of Olives. The prophet Zechariah bears this out and I believe Joel as well. The New Testament does not disignate where it is. Because it sounds like Megiddo, most make the mistake of thinking it is Megiddo. It's not, according to the OT. Also, the angel, when Jesus was resurrected from the Mount of Olives implied that he would return to where he went up and somewhere in the OT it is prophesied that that is where messiah's feet will light. I can find that if you want it. I've explained why I don't think the time is yet. I've made it clear that some major things need yet to happen. That's why I say the younger will be the more likely to witness it. What's wrong with that?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

I see the clear implication of a cashless society here for the latter days since it's global and the stuff is pretty much in place to impliment a cashless world today. If you see it otherwise, that's your prerrogative, but don't tell me that the implication is nonsense. Most escatology experts agree with me on this. You're the odd man out on how you interpret this prophecy.3. The beast related to the number is the ten nation/region world power confederacy of rulers as per the same beast which is explained in Revelation 17. Thus it is a government mark or number such as the government issued social security number used presently. Interesting guess and that's all it is. Nothing obvious to me. How so? Specifically why? Nothing here but yada, so no response needed. Too bad for you, Mr Professing Christian. Your loss. Rev 1:3 in your Christian book says the ones who read, hear and keep the prophecies of the book are BLESSED! You're the one who misses the blessing. I've been highly blessed and enlightened by them for over 50 years so as to know what in the world is going on, why and how it will all play out.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

to which Buz replies:

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Interesting guess and that's all it is. Nothing obvious to me.

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Not even a guess Buz, it is a made up humerous look to show just how silly prophecy is. The only difference between my G-10 and the US as the beast scenario and your Russia, China, Muslim states eastern power change partners as soon as someone shows what you picked is sill tap-dance is that I can actually point to ten nations that DO control the finance of the world. I have fact, you have fantasy. LOLI bet they were Buz but since the prophecies all came about or should have come about 1800-1900 years ago, it doesn't much matter. They daid already. As to knowing how it wil all play out, if this thread is any example you don't have a clue.Look at some of the nonsense you posted. Buz, do you have any idea how cloudy it is in the desert? Drought and evaporation = clouds. Come on Buz. Look at a weather map. Where do the clouds form off Africa. Not over the desert, but out over the oceans. So now we have not just drought and evaporation but violent perciptation with 100lb hail stones (which are predicted? Where in the Bible Buz or is that the prediction from some preacherman?)Buz, look at weather. Drought and evaporation is one area usually means precipitation somewhere else.Buz, these so called predictions are simply jokes. They are silly. Where have you lived the last four or five decades. China is not nuclear ambitious. They have them. And they have rockets that can reach the US. That is no prediction, just the recognition of what everyone has known for decades. Well, we have already dealt with the claim of moneyless global monetary and I showed that that is NOT predicted in Revelation 13 as you claimed. Shifts in world poswers and global drought and warming, again, they been happening right alon so no prophecy there.Im sorry Buz but simply gotta say to any Christians reading this thread, chortle, laugh, laugh hard if you want, but understand that like Buz, there really are people who believe this nonsense. Find out who they are. Make damn sure you don't vote for any of them. If you find out that one may be in a position of power, be afraid, be very afraid.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Time to show how this "prophecy" is not found on the Bible.

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1. Nobody can buy or sell without a mark or number on the hand or forehead.

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Which can simply mean that it is forbidden to "buy or sell" without the mark (which quite likely refers only to merchants rather than ordinary people). So all it need refer to is the passing of a law restricting trading. Modern society already includes a lot of restrictions on buying and selling - there are items which may not be bought and sold at all and items which only registered traders may deal in. So a law of this sort absolutely does not require a cashless economy.

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2. . chips with marks and numbers are already being implanted in animals, et al. It will likely be a matter of time before chips will be implanted on the forehead or hand so as to prevent security breaches and identity theft which is becoming a very serious problem.

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While chips for human identity have been proposed they are invisible implants - NOT the visible marks described by Revelation and nobody suggests putting them in the forehead. Even the hand is an unlikely choice. The arm, between elbow and shoulder, is the site suggested by the company that has been pushing the idea. So these chips are not the "Mark of the Beast" More importantly there is no proposal anywhere near acceptance and alternative technologies that look to be more promising.

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3. The beast related to the number is the ten nation/region world power confederacy of rulers as per the same beast which is explained in Revelation 17. Thus it is a government mark or number such as the government issued social security number used presently.

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It is far from clear that Revelation 18 refers to a confederacy of nations in the modern sense. Remember that it was written in the days of the Roman Empire, when local kings were sometimes permitted to rule more or less subject to the Roman Empire. The "ten horns" are said to be people who will rule as kings WITH the beast who is also identified as a king (and therefore a man, not a confederacy of nations). Even the count of ten must be wrong since there are 11 kings, ten of whom are subject to the first. Worse for you a confederacy of only 10 nations would not plausibly have the power to achieve all this.

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4. Never in the history of the world has a number or mark been required for all all nations of the world to buy or sell. Don't forget that this is global.

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Since the nations are supposedly ruled by a single tyrant this doesn't propose any serious objection to the reading I'm suggesting. However it does raise a serious problem for those who propose it refers to events in the near future. There are plenty of powerful nations - many with nuclear weapons - who are unlikely to accept any proposed ruler, and even less likely to all accept the SAME ruler. Would China and the USA give up their independance to accept an outside ruler ? Would Pakistan and India ? Could they all agree on a single person to rule them ?So we can say that:1) There is no necessary connection between the trade restrictions and a cashless society. More Revelation never mentions the disuse of money which itself would be a major event2) There are currently no serious proposals to use RFID chips as part of a cash-substitute. If there were they do not fit the description of the "Mark"3) The beast is a ruler, not a confederacy of nations - and the "ten nation" idea relies on ignoring the beast himself.4) The supposed global extent just confirms that it is not going to happen unless the world situation changes drastically.In conclusion Revelation 13 can easily be read as referring to tattoos or brands and a law restricting trade. It cannot easily be read as referring to a cashless society based on RFID chip implants. Tattoos or brands fit the description of the mark and are likely to be placed on the hand or forehead. RFID chips do not fit the description and are unlikely to be placed at either site, especially not the forehead.Under neither reading is it at all likely to actually happpen in the next ten or twenty or even fifty years..

Buz asserted:

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2. . chips with marks and numbers are already being implanted in animals, et al. It will likely be a matter of time before chips will be implanted on the forehead or hand so as to prevent security breaches and identity theft which is becoming a very serious problem.

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to which you rightly replied But there is one other thing to show that the RFID technology is NOT related to what is described as the Mark in the Bible.The MARK as described in the Bible is always the same. It is the same on every person. It does not identify the person but rather the Beast. Things like RFID IDs or Social Security Numbers or Passports that are unique to the item or individual simply would not fulfill the requirements in Revelations.From Revelations 13:16-18 Buz and the other End-Timers simply take pieces from the book and then make up some fantasy story to go along with it. It doesn't seem to matter what is actually in the Bible, they ignore what it really says and run with their fiction.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

IIRC, global warming was at its worst a number of times in the past. Outside of the Hadean, again IIRC, the hottest the earth has been was in the Jurassic.So no the earth is not hotter than it has been in its history. It is just getting hotter than is has been in its very recent history which is not suprising since that includes a big ice age.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Again, when you build an argument that is based on a false premise, it is very unlikely that you will get a right answer. All that Islam questions is the divinity of Jesus. But that is not a problem according to the Bible, nor does it make them anti-christ. Thomas the Skeptic also doubted. But when shown the evidence he believed.If a Muslim were presented with the same evidence shown to Thomas who knows what they would decide?So, yet another of your assertions, that Islam is related to the Anti-Christ seems to be just more of your personal fantasy.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

In fact, a tenent of Islam is that Jesus is the one coming back during Armageddon to gather the flock.It is just that Jesus isn't God and it is a different flock. =)Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

As I recall, back in the 60s the likes of Hal Lindsey didn't have much to say about Islam per se. It was just "the Arabs". It wasn't until the rise of Islamic fundamentalism and international terrorism that Islam was suddenly demonized.I'd like to see the "homework" that Buz turned in back then.
He'd be more impressive if he had predicted something before the fact.

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Just as the Christian view of messiah is against that of Judaism.If Christians can mutilate the concept of the messiah found in Judaism, and claim it is some sort of 'update', then why can't Islam's view of Jesus simply be a further update from God?Brian.

Well, Hal Lindsey like so many of the televangelists is pretty much a joke and a profitable commercial venture. He has been very successful selling well over 35,000,000 copies of his books to the gullible and easily led. He's got a great sideshow going and you gotta give him credit for milking it for all it is worth. Now that he and Paul Crouch have parted ways he stands to make even more money hawking his products.AbE:I forgot to mention that much of his stuff is really just recycled material from John F. Walvoord who showed just how profitable it could be to sell Armeggedon books. Walvoord's Armageddon, Oil, and the Middle East Crisis from back in the early 70's was one of the first and still one of the most successful of the Oil related Armeggedon stories, but in it Islam really played only the role of poor victims that happen to be in the way of super-power quests for oil.Edited by jar, : add info on Walvoord

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I wasn't aware of Walvoord. There was a William Goetz, whose Apocalypse Next was almost a chapter-by-chapter clone of The Late Great Planet Earth. (I only read it because he once pastored a local church.)At least the end-timers (like the YECs) get an 'A' for recycling.

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They are mutually supportive of all of their commercial enterprises as well. They willingly have each other on their own propaganda shows, whether it is TBN or 700 Club or Sky Angel or DayStar, they help each other with marketing in ways that most commercial enterprises could learn from. The televangelist has learned that the Christian Right is a virtually bottomless money source, a cash cow of Biblical proportions. They have realized that there is absolutely no reason they shouldn't all be rich and that the folk buying their books look on them as sequels, a never ending stream of royalty checks.Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jar writes:

Where have you lived the last four or five decades? China is not nuclear ambitious. They have them. And they have rockets that can reach the US. That is no prediction, just the recognition of what everyone has known for decades.

Everyone knows it where I live.

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Archer