Babel: The Mother Culture?

Everyone please drop the "Welcome to EvC" subtitle and make one more appropriate to the content of your posts.Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour timeout.Thank you

And if, like me sometimes, you are not clever enough to make up a new subtitle, you can always make the subtitle blank.Carry on.

I hoe I am not being too off-topic but I still want to know when this "Tower of Babel" was built. Could you or Scottness venture an actual date or date range using actual numbers?

Ya.Thats not really the point. In this place we have to look at the evidence. Can you provide such that would support your asertations?I would strongly argue that many lines of physical evidence points towards language developement as to have come from non supernatural origins.Whether or not the xian god is real or not, the evidence would still point towards a naturalistic progression of communication in humans.So, can you back up your assertation?

Something like 2000 BCE.There is a Sumerian myth similar to that of the Tower of Babel, called "Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta". Enki and Enlil end up confusing the languages of people during one of their fights.

quote:

---

Enki and Enlil

---

What rascals. Weren't they the ones that flooded the earth, too?

---

Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

Enlil did it. Some sources (my favourite ones) say that we were created as slave labour for the Anunnaki who came from the 10th planet (yeah I know but no more hard to swallow than any other mythic cycle).The flood was to cull our numbers. Enki was supposed to have created us with his half sister Ninki and he quite liked us. He taught us things like free will where as Enlil just wanted cheap labour sources.

Thanks for the info, it is around the date I think the YECs mean.However, I do want to actually see a date or date range when this tower was built from both NJ and Scottness as I want to clarify this part of the exact premise of their arguments before proceeding.So YECs, is around 2000 BCE the date?

In researching the Gilgamesh myth and it's relation the Tower of Babel I came across this quote at Answer in Genesis by Jonathan Sarfati... So the basis of research starts with the literal biblical text! And anything that might suggest anything counter is "liberal theory".I guess belief in a round earth and a heliocentric solar system are "liberal theories" and need to be demolished.People trust these nutcases?

Yes, very easily...If God is real, then the natural laws that you invoke for explaining the phenomenon of communication are His invention. Which means that he is ultimately responsible for their formation, even if we were given some power to influence the direction.The point I tried to make a few posts ago, is that God split us up (by His sovereignty) when we tried to create that which is undivisible from Him; 'the Word'. We divided ourselves don't you see? But ultimately it was God who divided us, by His sovereignty. The laws of reason and of nature, would not allow us to proceed (that is His doing). The Tower fell, and will always fall. The only standing tower is that of Christ... IMO.That is why I say that the Tower of Babel is more about philosophy than physical language. I do hope that someone will get the point. it is astonishing!Communication was present before humanity, so humanity is not responsible for communication.I think John said it, as well as it can be said: "In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God. ...and the Word became flesh."To me, anything else is just babbling. And I know a thing or two about babbling being the sinner that I am. Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

"No matter how well Edenics 101 defends the Biblical thesis, it may not be true that ALL humans think in Edenic, and the output stage, or spoken language, is always a simple variation of the Edenic. There is one exception that proves the rule. The exception is the language of the African Hottentots. This isolated tribe speaks in an elaborate code of clicks and whistles -- not with the usual consonants (whose variants we shall soon study) nor the ordinary vowels (which even vary within neighborhoods of large cities). Are the non-speaking Hottentots truly human? Are they some sort of pre-Adamic spawn of the animal-Nachash who are lacking true divine souls (as some fear about sociopaths who have no divine conscience)?" *Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

[/qs]"No matter how well Edenics 101 defends the Biblical thesis, it may not be true that ALL humans think in Edenic, and the output stage, or spoken language, is always a simple variation of the Edenic. There is one exception that proves the rule. The exception is the language of the African Hottentots. This isolated tribe speaks in an elaborate code of clicks and whistles -- not with the usual consonants (whose variants we shall soon study) nor the ordinary vowels (which even vary within neighborhoods of large cities). Are the non-speaking Hottentots truly human? Are they some sort of pre-Adamic spawn of the animal-Nachash who are lacking true divine souls (as some fear about sociopaths who have no divine conscience)?"[/qs]Dear Dr. Adequate, you raise an excellent example and a tremendous opportunity for me to make the point I raised in message 40 and previously in this thread.The language that the Tower of Babel is referring to is the language before liguisitic expression. The universal language of reason.We can use all kinds of characters or sounds or action etc. to express an idea to another person. But it is the ideas themselves; the spiritual ethereal concepts which remain the same. When we try to alter those things and re-invent logic as it were; it is then that we then find our Towers crashing to the ground in failure.If there is one message of the Bible that is present (and it is certainly present in the Tower of Babel) it is that being itself is founded on the nature of God.The New Testament litterally builds on this theme. The Rock Of Ages! The Holy Temple is Christ Himself! The only foundation for our being and our towers of enlightenment is Christ.Whatever reality is... it is Christ in Hebrew liguism.Jesus warned that many would come saying, "Here is the Christ, come and see!"A couple in Marin County near me, recently suggested that we all have a collective orgasm for peace. Perhaps I cannot persuade you to consider that the Tower of Babel is as I interpret it. And perhaps I cannot persuade you to consider that jesus Christ was actually God incarnate... But I assume we can agree that orgasm does not equal Christ.I think it is safe to say their tower is doomed to failure. Many might say 'Let's try it! We should try anything for peace!"My only question to them would be, "Anything?"How about putting your faith in Jesus and asking Him into your life, and seeing for yourself if He responds."Perhaps the Tower to Peace is not built by the democracies of mankind, but accepted or rejected in the heart of each individual man and woman as the foundation built by another who's glory we can never steal for ourselves.We want our Towers for our own glory. Yet I have found that it is free to any who ask for it, if they are in admission that they are not worthy to behold it.Just one mans opinion...

Yes, very inadequate... When providing "physical evidence" you cannot start with "if God is real..." That is all nice, but it is all extra-biblical speculations. In the below passage where is the "Word" mentioned? And again you go on to say... Again you are creating extra-biblical speculations. That is not what the text says. It is really very clear.Do some research the tower of babel is a borrowed myth from the Sumerian's. The Sumerian myth is older and cruder. Yes but it is natural process and not a super-natural process. Animals communicate. Communication is a very natural process for intelligent creatures.

I must either be misunderstanding you, or you are living in the iceages (kidding you man!). You're well spoken.I did not presume to offer 'physical' evidence for a being that is Self described as Spirit. I thought it best to put in the 'if', so as not to offend the sensibilities of those emotionally attached to their worldviews. I am truely sorry if you are still offended.I would prefer to simply claim as fact that God does exist. That the natural universe is the finest proof! But I think that I must use some logic in order to make the connections. Is that a crime?I suppose that algebra is not acceptable to you because it often begins with the premise: 'If This... Then that!'Can we please be reasonable? You asked where the 'Word was mentioned'. Did you see the words one language that I highlighted?Now it appears to me, that the problem you are having in understanding me, is the very division caused by the difference in our worldviews. Our philosophies are not compatible. We are working against one another. We are not cooperating to build the Tower. Hence the point! Indeed I am Iceage! Well observed! And why is it that your speculative interpretation is accurate and mine is not? Can you read between the lines?Do you know why Jesus spoke in parables? He said, (Mt 13:13) "This is why I speak to them in parables: Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand."(Mt 13:35) So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world." How do you know that it is borrowed?That is not a skeptical examination Iceage, but a simple-minded and cyincal defense of your own worldview. Why can't the story be a shared experience of mankind, not worthy of remembrance for some, and worthy of re-telling for others?Why is it that you believe the story of Sumaria more accurately portrays the scene?What is remembered by a people is balanced upon the intention and the bias they hold.If anything, the Sumarian connection (as with the connections with 'The Flood' in other cultures) only goes to add credibility. It does not work in your favor in my opinion. To say this as a statement of fact (as you did), you must first assume that you 'know' the origin of nature. And whatever that origin is my dear brother... it is an assumption who's only anchor is ultimately in faith. At least that is the fact of the matter as we discuss these things in the 21st Century.There was only one man that I know of, who was bold enough to assert that you can know the truth. It was the same man who claimed to be the truth.We crucified Him for that, because we don't want to know the truth. We want to defend what we want to be true. Reality has a jagged edge, and illusions always collapse just as the Tower of Babel illustrates. You might even call the story... scientific theory that is demonstrated by experience.Peace to you...Edited by scottness, : SpellingEdited by scottness, : edit

Ha ha, you beat me to it."If god is real....."Sigh.