Did the sky really go dark as biblical inerrantists insist?

quote:

---

And Luke, by his own testimony, was meticulous in gathering eye-witness testimony of the events of his gospel.

---

Pardon?The actual passage reads :"Since many have undertaken
to compile a narrative
of the events that have been fulfilled among us,
just as those who
were EYEWITNESSES from the beginning and ministers of the word
have handed them down to us,"I too have decided,
after investigating everything accurately anew,
to write it down in an orderly sequence for you,
most excellent Theophilus,
so that you may realize the certainty
of the teachings you have received."Does Luke actually claim to have spoken to eye-witnesses?
No.Does Luke actually identify any eye-witness?
No.Does Luke directly connect his writings with the eye-witnesses?
No.All that he says about eye-witnesses amounts to :
"Many have written a narrative about the events based on what the eye-witnesses handed down to us."That's ALL he says about eye-witnesses.
In a nut-shell : "many have written ... based on eye-witnesses"No connection is made between the eye-witnesses and Luke or his writings.THEN
Luke describes his OWN VERSION :
"after investigating everything accurately anew,
to write it down in an orderly sequence for you"NO mention of eye-witnesses here, merely the claim his version is ACCURATE and ORDERLY.In summary,
the use of the word "eye-witnesses" has no bearing on Luke's writings.Luke was not an eye-witness,
Luke met no eye-witnesses,
Luke identified no eye-witnesses,
Luke does not directly connect his writing with any eye-witnesses.Iasion

Greetings,

quote:

---

One account comes from Thallus, a Grecian historian who wrote the histories from the Trojan War to his own time, the second is Julius Africanus, who is more suspect because he was a Christian in the 3rd century. Both writers come after Jesus' death, so obviously this has been called into question. However, when Thallus wrote his discourse in 52 AD, which is 19 years after the event, means that he once lived contemporaneously with Jesus. That also means he was alive at the time of Jesus' crucifixion and presumably lived through the experience himself described in Luke. What is most interesting about the whole event was that Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover which would make a solar eclipse impossible because of the positioning of the moon, earth, and sun would not have been aligned to allow for this.

---

Wrong.We have NO certain evidence when Thallus lived or wrote, there are NONE of Thallus' works extant.What we DO have is a 9th century reference by George Syncellus who quotes the 3rd century Julianus Africanus, who, speaking of the darkness at the crucifixion, wrote: "Thallus calls this darkness an eclipse".But,
there is NO evidence Thallus made specific reference to Jesus or the Gospel events at all, as there WAS an eclipse in 29. This suggests he merely referred to a known eclipse, but that LATER Christians MIS-interpreted his comment to mean their darkness. (Also note the supposed reference to Thallus in Eusebius is a false reading.)Richard Carrier the historian has a good page on Thallus:
Richard Carrier Thallus » Internet InfidelsThallus is no evidence for Jesus at all,
merely evidence for Christian wishful thinking.Iasion

Greetings,

quote:

---

It has been said that this event was recorded by numerous civilizations,

---

Really?
WHO said it?Why is there NO evidence for it?Many writers of astronomical events did NOT record it :* Marcus Manilius wrote on astrology/astronomy in Rome early 1st C.* Hero(n) of Alexandria wrote many technical works, including astronomy in mid 1st C.* Geminus wrote on astronomy in Greece in mid 1st C.* Pliny the Elder (Gaius Plinius Secundus) wrote a large Natural History in Rome, in late 1st C.* Theon of Smyrna wrote on astronomy/philosophy in early 2nd C.* Ptolemy (Claudius Ptolemaeus) wrote the astronomical masterpiece the Almagest in Alexandria, in early 2nd C.There is NO historical evidence of this event happening at all.
None.Iasion

Greetings,

quote:

---

Thallus was said to have described it similarly to Luke's gospel, as in what appeared to be an eclipse and an earhtquake that rent the ground.

---

Wrong.Thallus apparently described a normal eclipse.
Luke describes something very DIFFERENT to an eclipse.Thallus did NOT mention an earthquake.
Luke did.So,
Thallus did NOT support Luke at all.

quote:

---

So, nobody knows what darkened the saky so profoundly all over the Meditteranean, and/or what caused a contemporaneous earthquake.

---

Nonsense.We know what causes eclipses.And we know the fantastic events of Luke did NOT take place:
* they violate natural law.
* no-one recorded these events.It did NOT happen.
It's myth.Iasion

quote:

---

Both Thallus and Luke spoke about 'a strange darkness.'

---

False.
Thallus did not write of "a strange darkness".

quote:

---

"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake." -Thallus
Apparently he did.

---

False.
They are not the words of Thallus.
We do not have any works of Thallus extant.

quote:

---

What law did it violate?

---

Eclipses do not last 3 hours.

quote:

---

If no one recorded it then we wouldn't arguing about that, now would we?

---

No-one recorded it.
It is mentioned only in a story from decades afterwards.Thallus later mentioned an unrelated eclipse which a LATER Christian MIS-interpreted.

quote:

---

We don't know who else may have recorded it. The scrolls may not have survived.

---

What nonsense.We DO have many records of eclipses and astronomical events of the period as I listed - they do NOT include the Christian legend.This is a well-known desperate ploy when there is NO evidence at all for some fantastic belief - pretend there might be some evidence out there somewhere, maybe destroyed, maybe hidden.May as well pretend there were scrolls proving the Invisible Pink Unicorn - only they were all destroyed.IasionEdited by Iasion, : No reason given.

Greetings,You have made a basic errorm but do not appear able to grasp it, or admit it -

quote:

---

"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake." -Thallus

---

These are NOT the words of Thallus.
You are wrong.They are the words of Julius Africanus, who wrote :

quote:

---

"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."

---

These are the words of a CHRISTIAN from CENTURIES later.
What this tells us is that Thallus refered to an eclipse.So what?
There WAS an eclipse in this period.
Thallus refered to a REAL eclipse which REALLY happened.Then,
CENTURIES later, Africanus read Thallus and CLAIMED the real eclipse mentioned by Thallus was the Christian darkness.This is merely a CLAIM by a Christian.There is NO evidence Thallus referred to any abnormal event.
There is NO evidence Thallus referred to an earthquake.

quote:

---

If there are no extant works then how is it we know who he is?

---

There are no extant works of Jesus either - so, how do YOU know who he allegedly was?

quote:

---

If historians keep track of people through writings, then doesn't make sense that they paraphrased his writings? I love it how atheists only call into question matters of antiquity when it points to Jesus Christ.

---

False.
I am not an atheist.
And sceptics question ALL ancient works.
Christians however, accept any old fantasy if it supports there beliefs.

quote:

---

But they have no problem with believing Plato's works. Plato's wroks have long since been destroyed by time.

---

People do NOT "believe Plato's works" - you don't seem to understand anything about history. Plato's works DO exist.

quote:

---

All of the works are copies made by other peolpe.

---

Just like the Bible.

quote:

---

You don't call that into question,

---

We DO call it into question, like any ancient work.
But Christians refuse to question anything about there fantastic beliefs.

quote:

---

but you call into question Julianus Africanus who quoted Thallus. Pathetic.

---

It is your inabiity to grasp basic facts which is pathetic.
Africanus DID NOT quote Thallus.
Get your facts straight.
Africanus mentioned a comment by Thallus - not a quote.Thallus apparently mentioned a REAL ecplise which really happened.
But in your fantasy world, this is evidence of a totally different and un-natural fantastic event.

quote:

---

That's because it probably wasn't an eclipse. Everyone reading the passage simply assumes that it was an eclipse.

---

Eclipses happen.
Fantasy darknesses do not.

quote:

---

You're not very bright are you? If it wasnt recorded, whether it was an actual event in human history or not, we still would not be discussing it. Of course it was recorded. That recording is the very basis of our arguing, the only difference being that I believe it was legitimate and you don't.

---

You are so stuck in your fantasy world, you cannot tell the difference between RECORDS and STORIES.There is NO record of the event - I cited many RECORDS of eclipses and astronomical events of the period.
These RECORDS we DO have of eclipses etc - contain NO mention of your fantasy event, which WOULD have been recorded.Instead, you have a FANTASY mentioned in a STORY.Fantasies in stories are not records.
But according to you they are.
According to you, the fantasy of Apuleis turning into an ass is true - it is recorded in the Transformations of Lucius.

quote:

---

If NONE of Thallus' works have survived, then how would you know what he mentioned either way? You just want so badly to discredit the Bible that you are contradicting yourself along the way.

---

Seriously, do you not understand this?
We do NOT have any of Thallus's works.
We DO have some comments ABOUT Thallus in OTHER books.
This is a basic concept, why can't you grasp it?

quote:

---

I know that you eclipses occur and have occured. The only thing I mentioned was that eclipses do not occur on the Passover, hence, the 'fearful darkness' was not due to an eclipse but of something else. Obviously, the two people who recorded it, Luke and Thallus, thought it to be of suoernatural origin.

---

G.Luke did not "record" anything. He wrote a story, based on the early story of G.Mark.
Thallus did not "record" it either - he mentioned an ECLIPSE, which really happened.
But YOU pretend this normal eclipse was your fantasy event.

quote:

---

Desperate ploy? Even if I had a million pieces of evidence, you'd ask for a million and one more. If you don't believe in the Deity of Christ then don't. Let it be on your own head.

---

You don't have even ONE piece of evidence - just stories and claims.

quote:

---

I wouldn't know either way and neither would you. Nor would I care.

---

Well readers, there we have it :-)
NJ cannot tell if the IPU is real.
Incredible.Iasion

Greetings,Here is what JULIUS AFRICANUS wrote :"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."But NJ simply cannot grasp that Thallus did not write those words.Thallus refered to an ecplise - we do not know exactly what he said. But we DO know there WAS an eclipse in that period.So, Thallus simply refered to a REAL eclipse, but Aficanus thought he meant the Christian event.A claim by a Christian from centuries later is no proof.Iasion

Greetings,

quote:

---

Yes, unless those books did not survive decay which is entirely possible. But, again, if you want to remain skeptical and challenge the historicity of the Bible and of certain extra-biblical writ that corroborates the Biblical account, you are more than welcome to that.

---

Do you believe the Koran?
Or the Gita?
Or the myths of Osiris?Or do you only apologises and support ONE stream of religious legends?

quote:

---

However, I wonder why it is that no one questions other antiquities that sometimes come to us off of a second or thirdhand testimony.

---

Wrong again.
All ancient works are questioned.
But Chrstians just cannot accept questioning of THEIR legends.

quote:

---

For instance, there is none of Plato's actual handwritting still in existence.

---

Correct.
So what?

quote:

---

Other historians that came after him transposed his documents to preserve his words. How come no one thinks to question the authenticity of his works? Isn't that incredibly biased?

---

They ARE questioned. Like all ancient works.
You just don't the facts.

quote:

---

If the logic that undermines Thallus' account is to be considered, then all of antiquity should be brought into question in a similar fashion.

---

It IS - you just don't know the facts.Socrates is questioned - some claim he did not exist.
Some scholars claim Mohamed did not exist.
William Tell - legendary.All of antiquity is questioned - but no-one cares much about Socrates' existence.Christians however, reject any questioning of their legends, with spurious arguments like yours.Iasion

Greetings,

quote:

---

Perhaps you've never read Plato's works. Much of it is off the wall, as it deals with mythology. But that is realy besides the point.

---

No-one pretends Plato's stories are real.
Unlike Christians who argue their myths are true.

quote:

---

I gave you referrences to the OP's question. There are 2 extra-biblical referrences that corroborate the gospels account.

---

No there are not.All you have is a later Christian believer from CENTURIES after the event,
who CLAIMED that a mention of a REAL eclipse
was referring to the Christian fantasy event.There is no actual evidence that Thallus was referring to the Christian fantasy event. That is just wishful thinking by Christians such as Julius and NJ.And,
the actual RECORDS we DO have of eclipses etc. do NOT mention the Christian fantasy event.Iasion

Greetings,

quote:

---

Those must be the words of Thallus otherwise how would Africanus know how it happened???

---

Africanus merely repeats Christian legends.
He then CLAIMS Thallus mentions the fantasy event.

quote:

---

You can say, 'well, I don't believe it. That's just a Christian insertion."

---

I said nothing of the sort.
You just cannot understand my argument.Let me say it again:* Thallus mentioned an eclipse - a real and normal eclipse that really happened in 29 AD
* CENTURIES later, Africanus claims Thallus mention of an eclipse is about the Christian fantasy event.There is no evidence that Thallus said anything more than refer to an eclipse.

quote:

---

First of all, if that were an insertion, why not just make up whatever ancient historian?

---

I NEVER said it was an insertion.
Why can't you understand what I write?

quote:

---

Why just one? Probably because Africanus was legitimately quoting Thallus.

---

No he didn't.
Where does Africanus indicate a QUOTE?He does not quote Thallus at all.He merely says "this darkness Thallus calls an eclipse".NOWHERE are the exact words of Thallus quoted.The ONLY thing he says about Thallus is : "...calls an eclipse"No-one believes Africanus quotes the exact words of Thallus - except you.
You are the only person I have ever encountered anywhere, ever, who thinks this.

quote:

---

But at the same time, call all of antiquity into question, don't just single out anything just might point to the fact that gospel is an actual histrocal accounting. That's just bad buisness.

---

You don't actually READ what I write, do you?We DO call all of antiquity into question.
ALL ancient writings are questioned.You are totally wrong about this.
Once more you sure complete inability to grasp the facts.
You totally ignore it when proved wrong.We DO question all of antiquity.
Sadly, YOU cannot grasp this.Please actually READ what I write.
Please actually try and respond to the arguments I produce.So far, you just ignore it when proved wrong, then repeat the same old false claims.Iasion

quote:

---

And yes, I believe that Thallus believed it was an eclipse,

---

Great.
We agree.Thallus refered to a normal eclipse, which we know happened in 29CE.

quote:

---

however, the way it was described and during the time it happened, it is impossible for it to be an eclipse.

---

The way the STORY is told - it's an impossible event.
There is no records, no evidence, NOTHING from "during the time it happened".

quote:

---

An eclipse cannot last for 3 hours, not on your life, nor can it occur during the Passover.

---

Great.
We agree.
The story as told in the Gospel, is impossible.

quote:

---

Secondly, Thallus records an earthquake during the eclipse.

---

No he didn't.
Africanus wrote those words.But we have seen you refuse to budge on this issue.
Every scholar, every reader here, every commentary on Africanus agrees with me.
Not one single person in the world AFAIK, agrees with you that they are the words of Thallus.
I have a copy of Africanus here in my hand.
What is YOUR source ?Can you please explain WHY you think they are the words of Thallus?
The surface reading shows plainly they are the words of Africanus.

quote:

---

How would you know? You don't trust that Africanus could actually have quoted Thallus, so in effect, you just bastardized your own argument.

---

Wake up!
We know an eclipse took place in 29, it is mentioned by others, and simulations show it took place 24th November 29CE.
Do you even know what you are arguing anymore?Africanus did not quote Thallus.

quote:

---

The evidence is in the man's words and the fact that it was also recorded in the gospels.

---

Whose words?
Thallus wrote about a real eclipse - so what?
The Gospels include some fantasy stories, unsupported by history.
CENTURIES later the Christian Africanus repeated the stories and made some CLAIMS - so what?

quote:

---

See, you are assuming guilt before innocence when it comes to the Bible. If you want to bring the Bible into disreptue, let it be on your own head. But please don't piously sit there and act like you are pragmatic or are the pinnacle of objectivity when your bias blinds you.

---

Purest preaching. No content.
On and on it goes ...

quote:

---

What, pray tell, makes it so apparent in your mind? Again, I don't doubt that Thallus considered what he saw on that day to be an eclipse. Neither do I doubt his sincerity on the matter.

---

Solar system simulations confirm reports of an eclipse in 29AD.

quote:

---

But according to Africanus, who should be presumed innocent before guiltly, Thallus' description doesn't make sense to be an actual eclipse.

---

CENTURIES later, Africanus CLAIMED that Thallus' mention of a real ecplise was actually about the Christian fantasy event - so what?

quote:

---

What is unnatural is having an eclipse last 3 hours wrong (musta been a real slow rotation that day) or that eclipses can occur doing the month of Passover. So much for fantasy.

---

Great.
We agree.
The Christian fantasy event is not natural.

quote:

---

It was recorded by Phlegon,

---

Phlegon wrote during the 140s - his works are lost. Later, Origen, Eusebius, and Julianus Africanus (as quoted by George Syncellus) refer to him, but quote differently his reference to an eclipse. There is no evidence Phlegon actually said anything about Gospel events, he was merely talking about an eclipse (they DO happen) which LATER Christians argued was the "darkness" in their stories.Phlegon did NOT record the Christian fantasy event.He recorded an eclipse.
Later Christians claimed he meant their fantasy event.

quote:

---

Mark, Luke, and Matthew.

---

Religious legends.

quote:

---

And what makes you not question the authenticity of any other documents??-- because it runs counter to what you want to believe, which is that no such person named Jesus Christ existed?

---

Sadly,
it is clear you cannot grasp this concept.ALL ancient works are subject to question.
We DO question ALL other documents.But you refuse to accept this.Your mind is so closed you refuse to understand a basic concept that almost every person I know understands -
ALL ancient works should be questioned.But YOU want the Bible to be IMMUNE from question.
YOU want the Bible and Christian legends to be accepted without question.Or else we will be damned to eternal hellfire.A few centuries ago, you would have been calling for me to be burnt at the stake.
Fortunately, the Church lost.
We know theor stories are nonsense now.Your fire and brimstone speeches are WORTHLESS.
Your beliefs are NONSENSE.Iasion

Greetings,The works of Julius Africanus can be found here:Bible History Tools and Resources - AD and BCIasion

Greetings,

quote:

---

Yet, that does not give us the works of Thallus.. just a biased reference to them.

---

Hmmm..
Do you really still not get it?
The works of Thallus do NOT EXIST anymore!
A very simple concept, but causing so much argument.And what on earth do you mean by "biased?
What is your point?Iasion

Greetings,

quote:

---

You can't say 'thallus said' xxx. You can only say that 'Africanus claimed that thallus said'.

---

Correct.
If I have used the phrase "Thallus said..." it means "according to Africanus".

quote:

---

Since , from a historical point of view, an eclipse did not happen during the time that Africanus said thallus said happen,

---

Doh.
First you state "you can't say Thallus said xxx"
Then you state "when Thallus said [it] happen[ed]"Did you really not realise you contradicted yourself?Which is it?
Do we know what Thallus said or not?
You can't seem to make up your mind.Anyway,
There WAS an eclipse in 29CE.When do YOU claim Thallus said the eclipse happened?
Because there is no evidence at all for that.

quote:

---

we can be sure that Africanus was wrong about his interpretation of Thallus.

---

What?
How?We DO know there WAS an eclipse in 29CE,
all the evidence suggests he refered to that.Iasion

Remember we don't really know IF the crucifixion took place.IasionEdited by Iasion, : No reason given.