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Author Topic:   If Genesis is Metaphorical, what's the metaphor?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 16 of 168 (187533)
02-22-2005 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jjburklo
02-21-2005 9:39 PM


If this is indeed the case, what exactly is the metaphor?
The metaphor is the relationship of God to man, the nature of God, and how that nature is to be reconciled with the presence of evil in the world.
It's basically about the place of the Hebrew people in the world, and their relationship with their God. That's what religions do, basically - give us narrative frameworks that explain our place in the world.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by mikehager, posted 02-22-2005 4:43 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 29 by tardygm2, posted 02-22-2005 7:33 PM crashfrog has replied
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 44 of 168 (187610)
02-22-2005 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by mikehager
02-22-2005 4:43 PM


Re: If we're talking about the fall,
That's a great interpretation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by mikehager, posted 02-22-2005 4:43 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by mikehager, posted 02-23-2005 12:45 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 45 of 168 (187611)
02-22-2005 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by tardygm2
02-22-2005 7:33 PM


what the hell
What the hell what?

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 130 of 168 (190374)
03-06-2005 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Jor-el
03-06-2005 8:50 PM


We can do away with guilt and concience because in the end there is really no right and wrong, no good and evil.
No offense, but you're totally wrong. Most atheists come to the conclusion that the lack of an all-powerful moral authority means that we have a duty to be more moral, not less. If we're the pinnacle of moral authority, if we're the only "gods", if you will, then our duty to each other is magnified, because there's simply no one else to fulfill that duty.
Western civilization is based on the premise of christian principles, and has been for the last 2000 years. Take away that premise and what have you got left?
Exactly what you started with - the morals that a society needs to serve itself. You've just eliminated the fairy tales you've used to manipulate people into following them, and convinced them to follow them on their own merits. Nobody wants to live in a crumbling society; thus, people will be moral because they understand the benefits of doing so.
You act like civilization must be Christian, or fail - yet, Western civilization is not the only civilization. It's neither the oldest, nor the most successful. You might stop by Japan if you wanted to see how a society could be non-Christian and yet preserve the way of life that you're familiar with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Jor-el, posted 03-06-2005 8:50 PM Jor-el has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Jor-el, posted 03-07-2005 2:50 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 138 of 168 (190500)
03-07-2005 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Jor-el
03-07-2005 2:50 PM


That actually looks very good when written down, putting it into practice is another matter entirely.
Yet, millions of atheists are "putting it into practice" every day, and the funny thing is, we're doing it better than most of you Christians. If the content of the jails is any indication.
When we throw off that cape of civilized behaviour
Who is claiming we need to overturn civilization? When people actually think about it, the vast majority come to the same conclusion - it's better to be civilized than not.
Your mistake is that you conflate belief in a fairy tale with understanding of what it takes to run a society.
I'm sure you have read "The Lord of the Flies" by William Golding, it is used in many Lit. classes in High Scool.
Yes, I have. Did you miss the fact that it's a story about how the elite use stories about the supernatural to manipulate others to do their bidding? Apparently so.
But you seem to be overlooking the fact that the supposed morals that the athiests have come up with were originally given by the christian outlook on life.
I'm sorry? Every culture as "do not steal" and "do not kill"; they predate the Bible by thousands of years.
This has been so for the last 2000 years.
Oh, right, because there were absolutely no civilizations whatsoever before they wrote the Bible. Funny, I must have missed that little factoid in World History.
Anything you can think of that uplifts humanity and gives it rights and responsibilities was brought about by that same christian faith which is now supposed to be "fairy tales".
I disagree. The best stuff predates the Bible. And a fair bit of your "Biblical morals" have actually the opposite effect; they are used to enslave and oppress elements of humanity. What's uplifting about telling two gay men that they're abominations that God hates? What's uplifting about telling black people they've been marked by God for slavery?
It looks like you're biting off the hand that fed you.
I'll bite away. There's nothing in the Bible that benefits us only in the context of Christian belief; and eliminating that basis of Christian belief removes much in the Bible that is harmful to our society.
As for being the most succesful, I think 2000 years of history is quite an achievement, don't you?
It's pretty good, but that 2000 years hasn't been all good times. The history of modern democracy, in practice, is maybe 200-300 years. A lot of your 2000 of Western Civilization has been the oppression of peoples and the tyranny of the elite. It's awesome that that gave birth to participatory government, but remember that that only happened when we pulled religion out of politics.
Humanistically speaking western civilization (based on christian principles) was the 1st to abolish slavery in the history of humanity.
Oh? That's news to me. Last I checked, Western civilizations put prisoners to work, drafted men into military service against their will, and instituted other acts of unfree labor. We don't always call it "slavery", of course, but the principle of coercing labor against the laborer's will still persists.
I'm glad we've made progress. But we weren't the first society to eliminate unfree labor; no society has, yet.
We cannot say that christian influence in society was not a positive modifier.
Compare, if you would, the length of time considered "the Dark Ages", when the Christian church held sway, with the length of time elapsed since the Enlightenment. On the balance, the Christian church has been a force of oppression, not of freedom.
Look at the old Soviet Society and see how a "moral and athiestic" society behaves itself. They were all for man being his own "god".
Then they weren't atheists, now were they? If you believe that the State is God, God is the State, then you're not an atheist. How can you be?
If you want to see how an atheist society can function, look around you. (Er, I see you live in Portugal, so what I mean is, look around me.) America is full of atheists, and somehow, we do just fine. Better than the theists, in fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Jor-el, posted 03-07-2005 2:50 PM Jor-el has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Jor-el, posted 03-07-2005 3:49 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 139 of 168 (190501)
03-07-2005 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Jor-el
03-07-2005 3:23 PM


Now I ask a question, why should my personal opinion be so shocking to you?
Why did you offer your opinion if you didn't expect it to be discussed? What do you think we do here, exactly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Jor-el, posted 03-07-2005 3:23 PM Jor-el has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Jor-el, posted 03-07-2005 3:40 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 141 of 168 (190504)
03-07-2005 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Jor-el
03-07-2005 3:40 PM


What need was there for saying that I was being arrogant when that was not the case?
A consciencious person would wonder why their audience percieved them as arrogant when they had no intention of being read that way.
In your case, you need to beware: the assertion that Christians know what's best for people better than anybody else comes off as arrogant no matter how you slice it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Jor-el, posted 03-07-2005 3:40 PM Jor-el has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Jor-el, posted 03-07-2005 3:56 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 143 of 168 (190507)
03-07-2005 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Jor-el
03-07-2005 3:49 PM


Can you name one society or culture that hasn't done the same?
Can you name one that hasn't been predicated on the worship of something? And that something being invested with absolute moral authority?
Be it God, or the Communist Party, or Our Great Leader, societies that have handed down arbitrary "absolute" morals have led to oppression of peoples.
As far as I know we live with and are people with faults and weakness' but you seem to take that to heart when it comes to christianity.
You're the one that singled out Christianity, not me. Don't retreat behind a feigned victimhood. Christianity isn't any worse than any of the others; it's merely my point that it isn't any better, either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Jor-el, posted 03-07-2005 3:49 PM Jor-el has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 145 of 168 (190512)
03-07-2005 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Jor-el
03-07-2005 3:56 PM


In that respect I was conciencious, and not presumptous enough to confuse a personal opinion with a response that speaks for all christians.
I don't understand how that's supposed to mitigate the arrogance of your statement. Did you, or did you not, advance the claim that Christianity, and soley Christianity, was able to provide the best morals for Western Civilization?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Jor-el, posted 03-07-2005 3:56 PM Jor-el has not replied

  
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