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Author Topic:   The Unacknowledged Accuracy of Genesis 1
Rahvin
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Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 271 of 302 (408614)
07-03-2007 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by IamJoseph
07-02-2007 6:10 AM


This is a reasonable response. We see incredible patterns on butterflies which would compete with any artist, architectural designs which would transcend the best of humans, and the same concerning awesome engineering works throughout the universe, on macro and micro levels. But even darwin never allocated this to a thing called evolution: butterflies show no self in-put in the designs of their wings - its totally involuntary, and what's more the complexity of the universe predates life and evolution. If anything, they attest as a proof only of Creationism.
Of course butterflies show no input. Evolution says nothing about a species "deciding" how to evolve - there is no conscious thought in the process whatsoever. Exactly as is observed. Evolution is the result of random mutation and natural selection producing gradual generational changes.
And the complexity of the universe is irrelevant - evolution says nothing about anything other than how species arise from other species.
You're fond of making strawman arguments, aren't you.
If a sited complexity is offered, as you have done - it has to be non-random based. Else it violates the constant:
'A COMPLEXITY CANNOT RESULT FROM A RANDOM' - Prof Roger Penfold/author MV.
Appeal to authority, and entirely incorrect, as evidenced by the very picture you were responding to! Complexity, as seen in ice crystals, does NOT require conscious input, and CAN result from random chance.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by IamJoseph, posted 07-02-2007 6:10 AM IamJoseph has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 280 of 302 (408656)
07-04-2007 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by IamJoseph
07-03-2007 10:44 PM


Re: Ah. Here is the problem.
Ok, then tell me this - anyone can - which came first: Evolution - or Wisdom? There is NO bypassing that Q.
This response really doesnt make any sense whatsoever. But there are two different answers. If you are asking whether the mechanism we call evolution existed before wisdom, the answer is an obvious "yes!" The mechanism was at work long before humanity arose and developed the concept or attributes of "wisdom." If you're asking whether the theory that describes the mechanism came before wisdom, then obviously the theory came later.
This is entirely irrelevant, however. I dont think you read what I posted. There is no "wisdom" or intelligence or anything else acting on evolution or the formation of ice crystals. Evolution is guided solely by natural selection, selecting from the random mutations to continue those versions that survive to reproduce. Species do not "decide" to grow wings or develop sentience - the concepts of intelligence and wisdom are completely irrelevant. If you disagree, and you believe some form of wisdom guides evolution, then explain why evolution makes such idiotic "decisions" as the human appendix, or the flawed human eye, or the fact that we use a single tube for breathing and food intake, allowing for easy choking.
The designs on abutterfly are not random - you act like you just proved they are. Its like finding a car on Mars and declaring it random - just to justify another insane premise.
I didnt say they were random. I said that evolution uses natural selection to select from natural random mutations to cause gradual change over generations. That's entirely different from saying they are random. The point was to show that complexity does NOT require an intelligence to guide it - the patterns on butterfly wings do not require a painter to come and draw them, and neither do ice crystals need to be sculpted by hand.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by IamJoseph, posted 07-03-2007 10:44 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by IamJoseph, posted 07-04-2007 1:20 AM Rahvin has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4042
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 285 of 302 (408673)
07-04-2007 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by IamJoseph
07-04-2007 1:20 AM


Re: Ah. Here is the problem.
I don't see wisdom as irrelevent, nor any viability whatsoever where there is no wisdom derived program to justify a result. The phenomenon you describe and aspire to, is non-existent outside darwin's novella. It is worth diverting to define 'wisdom' - this is NOT an autmatically evolved phenomenon, and requires equal defining as anything.
There is no intelligence guiding the process. Hence, wisdom is irrelevant.
Nor do I see the human body as idiotic or flawed, just because we do not see yet what a particular organ's function is: if anything, positing idiocy to life's mechanism only negates your own premise: your jitterbugging particles are the idiots. Nor does it mean if there are really some errors in the human body - that it signifies anything other than, or negates, wisdom. We have medicine only because of some wise imperfections in the system.
When the appendix is removed, absolutely no harm results unless complications occur in the surgery (infection, etc - irrelevant to the appendix itself). The human eye has a blind spot other, more distantly evolved creatures (octopi and birds, for instance) lack. There can be no purpose for a blind spot in an eye.
And of course the "jitterbugging particles" are idiots. The only one ascribing any intelligence to any process is you! Not I. The genetic code is not intelligent, nor does anyone claim it to be so. Again, you're attacking strawmen. You clearly have no concept of what evolution DOES say.
The criteria for random is where an intelligent source is not involved;
That's not a definition for the word "random." No intelligent source governs the evaporation of water, but we know that it's not random whether water will evaporate or not. It's a direct cause-effect relationship based on ambient temperatures, humidity, and the basic physical properties of water. No intelligence, not random.
using the placebo of natural selection from random mutations is totally contradictory of its own premise.
How so? I see no contradiction.
There is no such thing as NS - this is a recent term to not have to explain the inexplicable - the instant we find an intelligent program behind it, the term NS is discarded - gravity becomes the new buzz word - and gravity is based on a premise resultant from 'wisdom'.
There most certainly IS such a thing as natural selection, and it's an obvious, direct observation. You don't seem to understand that the process of evolution has actually been directly observed in a laboratory. Some of the very members of this board have been involved in such research. We KNOW that random mutation happens. We KNOW that beneficial and neutral mutations survive to reproduce while detrimental ones fail.
Look, Joseph. None of your responses make any sense whatsoever. I'm done here - this discussion is off topic for this thread anyway, and I have no desire to attempt to understand your ramblings about "wisdom" or any other irrelevant topic.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by IamJoseph, posted 07-04-2007 1:20 AM IamJoseph has not replied

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