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Author Topic:   Did Jesus do anything original?
judge
Member (Idle past 6443 days)
Posts: 216
From: australia
Joined: 11-11-2002


Message 6 of 30 (27077)
12-17-2002 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by nator
12-17-2002 12:14 PM


schrafinator:
Hmm, there are several prophecies that are said to have been fulfilled by Jesus, but such prophecies didn't exist in the OT.
Examples:
* Matthew claims that Jesus' birth in Bethlehem fulfils the prophecy in Micah 5:2. But this is unlikely for two reasons.
* "Bethlehem Ephratah" in Micah 5:2 refers not to a town, but to a clan: the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Caleb's second wife, Ephrathah (1 Chr.2:18, 2:50-52, 4:4).
* The prophecy (if that is what it is) does not refer to the Messiah, but rather to a military leader, as can be seen from Micah 5:6. This leader is supposed to defeat the Assyrians, which, of course, Jesus never did.
It should also be noted that Matthew altered the text of Micah 5:2 by saying: "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda" rather than "Bethlehem Ephratah" as is said in Micah 5:2. He did this, intentionally no doubt, to make the verse appear to refer to the town of Bethlehem rather than the family clan. 2:5-6
Judge:
Hi there schrafinator!
We may not ever really know exactly why matthews rendering differs in this way from the reading in the text we have that comes form the massorettes. However it is entirely possible , at least, that Matthew did not alter the text.
What I am saying is that I don't know that we should assume that the text of the OT that matthew was familiar with was identical to the Hebrew text that forms the basis of our english bibles.
As you may be aware the hebrew text that we use for our english translations was put together (and probably standardised) by European jewish believers in the middle ages. With perhaps some minor exceptions all the copies we have read identically.
This text varies at times with the LXX, the peshitta OT, the samaritan text , various aramaic targums and the NT.
Interestingly it also varies form some hebrew dead sea scrolls.
I think Matthew was probably familiar with an Aramaic targum, which probably read as the NT does.
* "He shall be called a Nazarene." Matthew claims this was a fulfillment of prophecy, yet such a prophecy is not found anywhere in the Old Testament. 2:23
* Jesus mistakenly tells his followers that he will return and establish his kingdom within their lifetime. 16:28
Judge:
I love this one! Yes I think there is no question that Jesus clearly said that He would come in glory or return and establish His kingdom in the lifetime of His listeners. Personally I think He did return. This of course means the historic creeds are wrong ,in part.
* This verse claims that Jesus fulfils the prophecy in Zechariah 9:9. But this cannot be since the person referred to in Zechariah (see verses 10-13) was both a military leader and the king of an earthly kingdom. 21:4
* Jesus predicts the end of the world within the lifetime of his listeners. 23:36.
Judge:
Yes he does. Heaven and earth passed away and were replaced by a new heavens and a new earth. I happened. if we read isaiah 65 we see that this is not meant to be taken literally.
* Verse 33 says that during Jesus' crucifixion, the soldiers didn't break his legs because he was already dead. Verse 36 claims that this fulfilled a prophecy: "Not a bone of him shall be broken." But there is no such prophecy.
* Jesus implies that he will return to earth during the lifetime of John. 21:22
judge:
Perhaps, but what was his return supposed to be. What was the coming of the messiah supposed to be in the OT? He was supposed to come in power and glory as a ruler who inaugerates the messainic age.
What most did not understand was that He was first to come and suffer, before entering into His glorious reign.
Is jesus implying He will return to earth (as before) or that he will come and inaugurate His kingdom?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 12:14 PM nator has not replied

  
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