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Author Topic:   Biblical Ages (the long lifespans)
Asgara
Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 1 of 18 (46133)
07-15-2003 3:57 PM


Hi all,

Surfing around the web, I came upon several sites discussing calendars. They talked about lunar reckoning rather than solar reckoning in early ages.

Given the probability of the Genesis stories being oral traditions long before being written down, what are the opinions of those here on the forums concerning the early biblical characters' ages being based on a lunar format. Taking 12.37 lunar cycles for ever solar cycle, this would put most absurd biblical ages well within, at least modern, human age spans. Adam 930 = 75, Seth 912 = 73, Methusala 969 = 78, and Noah 950 = 76.

If these original stories came from times pre-dating advanced astronomy, wouldn't it be logical for early man to "date" things by a lunar cycle rather than a solar one? As these stories get passed down in an oral tradition, it could be simple mistranslations of the cycle used to create the grossly excessive life spans of early biblical characters.

This seems pretty logical to me. Much more logical than some of the literalist posters here, contorting biblical stories and verse to explain the great ages as proof of a "terrarium atmosphere" and perfection in the gene pool. (Of course, this plays havoc with Bishop Ussher's calculations)

Anyway, this is just something that seemed interesting in the wee hours this morning, and I was wondering when astronomy/astrology became well known in the area. These stories would have had to pre-date any Babylonian or Greek astronomical advances by quite a bit.

http://thor.idx.com.au/evolve/oldestman.htm
http://evolutionofgenesis.homestead.com/Ages.html
http://www.flood-myth.com/ages.htm

sorry if this doesn't make any sense, I pulled an all-nighter last night and am slightly buggy right now

------------------
Asgara

"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Minnemooseus, posted 07-15-2003 4:50 PM Asgara has responded
 Message 4 by Rrhain, posted 07-15-2003 8:35 PM Asgara has responded

    
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3696
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


Message 2 of 18 (46140)
07-15-2003 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Asgara
07-15-2003 3:57 PM


I believe doctrbill has recently covered this. I checked his most recent messages list, but was unable to find the message. Perhaps it was someone else.

Anyhow, I believe the content of this unfound message was along the lines of Asgara's message. The added detail was that the zero point for the ages was that of puberty. This solved the problem of the person having had children at an improbable early age.

Still, the matter does deserve its own topic.

Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Asgara, posted 07-15-2003 3:57 PM Asgara has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Asgara, posted 07-15-2003 5:00 PM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

    
Asgara
Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 3 of 18 (46144)
07-15-2003 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Minnemooseus
07-15-2003 4:50 PM


Hi Moose,

Thanks, I'd appreciate the link if you find it.

On this same topic....Doctrbill, is this your site?
http://www.sun-day-school.us/index.html

Whether it is or isn't, its very interesting.

------------------
Asgara

"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 4 of 18 (46164)
07-15-2003 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Asgara
07-15-2003 3:57 PM


Of course, this causes a problem for making the universe even younger than the YEC's claim. Remember, there is a geneology from Adam to Noah and from Noah to Abraham. There's only about 1300 years from the flood to the founding of Solomon's Temple and another 1500 years from the creation to the flood. If they're using a lunar calendar, this puts creation at about 1200 BCE and we know that the earth is older than that...the Great Pyramid dates to the 26th century BCE.

------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Asgara, posted 07-15-2003 10:43 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
Asgara
Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 5 of 18 (46177)
07-15-2003 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Rrhain
07-15-2003 8:35 PM


Hi Rrh,

I guess that's just one more reason not to take the biblical stories as literal.

this puts creation at about 1200 BCE and we know that the earth is older than that...the Great Pyramid dates to the 26th century BCE

And the Yangshao Culture in China presumably goes back even further, dating upwards of 5000-7000 years ago.

Modern archeological, paleontological,and geological finds haven't stopped YEC yet. Why let facts get in the way of a perfectly good mindset

------------------
Asgara

"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato


This message is a reply to:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 808 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 6 of 18 (46182)
07-16-2003 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Asgara
07-15-2003 5:00 PM


The Men Who Lived Many Moons.
quote:
On this same topic....Doctrbill, is this your site?
http://www.sun-day-school.us/index.html

Whether it is or isn't, its very interesting.



Yes it is mine, and - Thank you very much. I'm glad you like it. The page in question is this one - http://www.sun-day-school.us/many_moons.htm -

You would think that New Testament authors would have commented on the phenomenal ages of their ancestors and drawn some sort of moral lesson like Christians do today, but they are silent on the subject. IMO, they understood the truth of what we are now learning.

Perhaps because I was raised Seventh-day Adventist I am especially interested in the seventh day - http://www.sun-day-school.us/shabbat.htm - and why it became so important that a death penalty was prescribed for anyone who worked on that day. http://www.sun-day-school.us/penalty.htm

I hope everyone in the forum will give this site a glance. As any of you webmasters can testify, such a project takes up Way Too Much Time.

db


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Asgara, posted 07-15-2003 5:00 PM Asgara has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Asgara, posted 07-16-2003 2:33 AM doctrbill has responded
 Message 8 by roxrkool, posted 07-16-2003 2:47 AM doctrbill has responded

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 7 of 18 (46183)
07-16-2003 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by doctrbill
07-16-2003 2:19 AM


Re: The Men Who Lived Many Moons.
DoctrB,

Mind if I link to your site from mine?

------------------
Asgara

"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by doctrbill, posted 07-16-2003 2:19 AM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by doctrbill, posted 07-16-2003 11:50 AM Asgara has responded

    
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 941 days)
Posts: 1493
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 8 of 18 (46184)
07-16-2003 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by doctrbill
07-16-2003 2:19 AM


Re: The Men Who Lived Many Moons.
I looked at your site and I thought it was really well done. Not to mention extremely interesting. I had never heard that about using lunar rather than solar cycles.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by doctrbill, posted 07-16-2003 2:19 AM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 808 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 9 of 18 (46237)
07-16-2003 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Asgara
07-16-2003 2:33 AM


Re: The Men Who Lived Many Moons.
quote:
Asgara: "Mind if I link to your site from mine?"

Sounds like a cool idea. Please post the address of your site here so I can see it, and perhaps link to it from mine. OK?

Or, you could modify your profile to list it as your homepage; that way everyone who checks out your profile can see it.
Cheap advertizing!

db

[This message has been edited by doctrbill, 07-16-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Asgara, posted 07-16-2003 2:33 AM Asgara has responded

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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 808 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 10 of 18 (46243)
07-16-2003 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by roxrkool
07-16-2003 2:47 AM


Re: The Men Who Lived Many Moons.
quote:
roxrkool: I looked at your site and I thought it was really well done. Not to mention extremely interesting. I had never heard that about using lunar rather than solar cycles.

Hi Rox,

Thanks for the comment. As far as I know, I arrived at it independently. It was a pretty amazing discovery to me at the time, but now it seems almost too obvious to be overlooked by a serious seeker. There must have been someone somewhere who noticed it before I did. This is (briefly) how it happened for me.

About thirty-five years ago, one of my professors of religion, while making a case for the uniqueness of the seventh-day Sabbath had said, "There is nothing in nature which exhibits a seven day cycle." i.e. The Sabbath is not based on anything in the natural world. I was young at the time and naive regarding the lunar calendar. Then, about thirty years later, I realized he was wrong.

Not long after introducing the subject in another Yahoo! debate forum a few years back, I was surprised to see an article appear in Watchtower magazine, shortly thereafter, criticizing the theory. It was especially amazing since I'd never heard of it before proposing it, and had just released my argument in a public forum. The Jehovah's Witness' criticism made no mention of the cultural factor - whereby children become members of the Jewish community at age 13. Without inclusion of this factor, of course, the theory does not work.

db

------------------
"If God created Nature, then the Law of Nature is the Law of God."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by roxrkool, posted 07-16-2003 2:47 AM roxrkool has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Percy, posted 07-16-2003 1:00 PM doctrbill has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18249
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 11 of 18 (46246)
07-16-2003 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by doctrbill
07-16-2003 12:38 PM


Re: The Men Who Lived Many Moons.
doctrbill writes:

There must have been someone somewhere who noticed it before I did.

I don't know if you're the first, but you're not the only. Check out this message from about a year and half ago. Unforunately there's insufficient information for finding the original source.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by doctrbill, posted 07-16-2003 12:38 PM doctrbill has responded

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 941 days)
Posts: 1493
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 12 of 18 (46247)
07-16-2003 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Percy
07-16-2003 1:00 PM


Re: The Men Who Lived Many Moons.
Could that have been doctrbill on Yahoo!?

[This message has been edited by roxrkool, 07-16-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Percy, posted 07-16-2003 1:00 PM Percy has not yet responded

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 Message 15 by doctrbill, posted 07-16-2003 2:22 PM roxrkool has not yet responded

    
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 808 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 13 of 18 (46250)
07-16-2003 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by roxrkool
07-16-2003 1:16 PM


Re: The Men Who Lived Many Moons.
Sounds like me, although I may have been going by another alias (canonyz) at the time. Perhaps I can track it down in the archives.

BTW, I've had to revise the age at which children become members of Jewish society. When I first aired my thoughts, I was going from memory (a faulty one?). I now have both biblical and modern Jewish evidence which indicates that the age is 13 years, not the twelve which I had previously stated. This change actually lends increased credibility to the theory. The theory is further enhanced by understanding that thirteen is, in Jewish culture, the age of majority. Witness this excerpt from: http://www.barmitzva.org/Barmitzva/life.html#Age%20of%20Responsibility

quote:
Bar Mitzva means "son of the commandment". ... subject to all the laws of the Torah as they apply to men.

... becoming a responsible adult depends not only on reaching the relevant age but also on showing the first signs of puberty at least two pubic hairs in the genital area. ...

Being thirteen and capable of fathering children qualifies a Jewish male to be a full adult member of the People of Israel, with all the accompanying obligations and privileges.



The boy is now legally a man.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by roxrkool, posted 07-16-2003 1:16 PM roxrkool has not yet responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 808 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 14 of 18 (46252)
07-16-2003 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Percy
07-16-2003 1:00 PM


Re: The Men Who Lived Many Moons.
quote:
Unforunately there's insufficient information for finding the original source.

I believe that was me but when I searched the archives at the old club, I couldn't access anything in the ballpark of the timeframe. To this day, however, I have not seen, nor hear of, anyone else promoting this theory.
Could it be that I have, for once in my life, done something original?

db

------------------
"If God created Nature, then the Law of Nature is the Law of God."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Percy, posted 07-16-2003 1:00 PM Percy has not yet responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 808 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 15 of 18 (46253)
07-16-2003 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by roxrkool
07-16-2003 1:16 PM


Re: The Men Who Lived Many Moons.
An additional bit of Jewish lore which indicates just how serious they are about what it means to turn thirteen in their society:
quote:
Under Torah law a thirteen year old is liable to the same punishments as any other adult for willful violation of the commandments of the Torah. The penalties include death for some of the worst crimes, flogging, fines and other sanctions.
The penalties are serious because the Mitzvot are so important. Not only do they affect us. They have an influence on the entire universe. Tradition teaches that God set things up in such a way that each mitzva has the power to affect the whole creation in ways far beyond the ability of the human mind to comprehend. Mitzvot carried out by a thirteen year old have as much power as those of people much older.
Excerpted from - http://www.barmitzva.org/Barmitzva/life.html#Age%20of%20Responsibility

db

------------------
"If God created Nature, then the Law of Nature is the Law of God."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by roxrkool, posted 07-16-2003 1:16 PM roxrkool has not yet responded

  
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