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Author Topic:   Windows 3 described in the Bible
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3075 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 75 of 90 (126806)
07-22-2004 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Amlodhi
07-22-2004 11:12 PM


In Gen. 1:26, God said "Let us make , (awdawm) - "mankind", in our image . . ."
In Gen. 1:27 God created (h'awdawm), i.e., "the man" in his image.
Hi Amlodhi:
The hebrew for 1:26,27 says "dm" and not "ishi", therefore, the text accuratley translated says "Let us make Adam in our image".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Amlodhi, posted 07-22-2004 11:12 PM Amlodhi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Amlodhi, posted 07-23-2004 12:39 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3075 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 80 of 90 (127347)
07-24-2004 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Amlodhi
07-23-2004 12:39 AM


Hi Amlodhi:
Originally posted by WILLOWTREE
The hebrew for 1:26,27 says "dm" and not "ishi", therefore, the text accuratley translated says "Let us make Adam in our image".
responding Amlodhi writes:
I respectfully disagree. ?(ish) is used to refer to an individual man in both the generic sense and in the sense of one among others
'ish' or 'ishi', like you say is 'man' in the generic sense.
Amlodhi writes:
The use of the definite article prefixed to the term "adam" האדם (h'awdawm), precludes its usage as either "one among others" or as a proper name, i.e. "Adam".
How can this be ?
The definite article reinforces the specificity of the object.
But where is this definite article in the original text ?
Amlodhi writes:
Note the definite article ה (h') "the", i.e., this is translated as "the man" instead of the proper name "Adam" because one wouldn't say "the Adam" anymore than one would say "the Cain".
OK, if you insist the original contains a def/art then so be it.
But your rendering is controlled by english grammar standards which is in defiance of the text/"dm"/h'awdawm.
Amlodhi writes:
Gen. 4:1 . . .and said, I have gotten איש (ish) "a man" with the help of YHWH.
But the passage we are arguing says "dm" and not "ish", it was you who already established "awdawm" or I prefer "odom".
It is a proper name distinguishing a certain creation, singling out from all the other "beasts of the field".
Amlodhi writes:
Note, no definite article and the following pronoun ("his"). This is the first usage of the term אדם (Adam) without the definite article where the grammar and context indicate a single person. Hence, a proper name.
So you are saying the def/art determines if "dm" becomes proper, why say "dm" to begin with ? Why not say "ish" ?
What about the patriarch "Dan" ? Is his proper name ever treated like "dm" ?
Amlodhi writes:
In the earlier usages, such as Gen. 1:26-27, God says, "Let us make אדם (adam) "mankind", in our image." In the very next verse (27), God creates האדם (h'adam) "the man" in his image. If the usage in verse 26, i.e. "adam" (mankind) was intended to indicate a proper name (Adam), the term in the following verse (27) wouldn't include the definite article. Otherwise, one would be forced to translate: "Let us create Adam . . . and he created the Adam in his image." It just doesn't work grammatically.
"it just doesn't work grammatically"
My exact point above.
You are admitting that the text translation is controlled by english grammar.
The def/art should be dropped OR just say "the odom". The def/art is there to prevent exactly what you are doing.
I respectfully submit that you are corrupting the text, which we agree to be "dm" to suit english grammar.
Earlier I questioned the existence of the def/art, but now I accept it. My sources agree.
There is no way around it.
God inspired "the odom/Adam" to specifically relate that Adam and his kind are special.
I also submit that the rendering of "man" or "mankind" for "dm"/"odom" is motivated by an 'a priori' theological position brought into the translation/debate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Amlodhi, posted 07-23-2004 12:39 AM Amlodhi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Amlodhi, posted 07-25-2004 9:54 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3075 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 85 of 90 (127949)
07-26-2004 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Amlodhi
07-25-2004 9:54 PM


Hi Amlodhi:
In the same sense, "ish" without the definite article would have the connotation of "a guy" or "a fellow", whereas "adam" without the definite article has the connotation of "humanity/mankind".
I'm sorry but this makes no sense.
We are both in agreement that Genesis 1:26 says "dm"/Adam.
"ish" or "ishi" is hebrew for man or mankind.
British = Brutus founded New Troy/London, descendant of Zarah/Genesis 38.
"brit" = covenant.
"ish" = man.
Hence, British = (O.T.) covenant man. Generic "ish" in action.
According to Dr. Scott the def/art cannot relegate "dm" to mean "ish".
The text says "dm" because the writer intends to single out this creation from every other "beast of the field". The def/art reinforces the object of this singling out.
The text says "Let us make Adam in our image" and no amount of grammatical contortions can change what you have admitted.
It should read "Let us make the Adam in our image" and in the previous post you admit that the ONLY reason this is not done is for proper english grammar considerations.
There can be no intent of the hebrew for the def/art to render "dm" - "ish". The very purpose of the def/art is to single out not just any man but Adamkind.
Your rendering is used by evolutionists to hijack Genesis and assert an ambiguity which allows them an ajar door to corrupt the source for their purposes.
The definite article does not convert "dm" to translate "ish".
What else could the author of Genesis done ? That person said "dm" because he meant "dm", if he wanted "ish" he would of said "ish".
The definite article, like I said, is intended to prevent exactly what you are doing.
source: Dr.Gene Scott
BTW, Dr. Scott routinely points out the errors of Brown-Driver and Briggs.
Give me a reference to any other proper name of a man in the biblical text that is preceded by the definite article and I will concede the point. If you cannot, you should concede the point.
"definite article" singles out not just any but THE something.
Prove the definite article, preceding the proper name, renders the proper name generic - why say a proper name if it is not meant ?
BUT there is no way to prove "dm" a proper name - it is the specific name given to a special creation, a special creation that receives the all important added element of God's breath/ruash/nefish.
"ish" is subsequently used to describe all the generic kinds of Adamkind.
Let's be clear; I'm saying that if it's prefixed with the definite article, then it's not a proper name. Look at Ecclesiastes 2:11-12 for example
You cannot leap from the objective undisputed Holy Writ of Genesis to a problematic Solomonic source. Superiority is not subject to correction by inferiority.
My sources say the only function of the definite article is to single out, and that it in no way can change "dm" to translate "ish".
Ez. 28:2, ". . . say to the ruler of Tyre . . . because your heart is lifted up, and you have said, 'I am a god' . . . yet you are man (adam), and not a god."
This is addressed to the ruler of Tyre. The term for "man" in the above passage is "adam", i.e. without the definite article. Thus, if you say that "adam" without the definite article should be translated as the proper name "Adam", then you must also be saying that Adam was the ruler of Tyre.
Here, then, we see that even without the definite article, the term "adam" doesn't necessarily indicate a proper name. Thus, it becomes apparent that rather than simply choosing when we'd like the term "adam" to indicate a proper name (I might, for instance, decide that I would like to make Adam the king of Tyre), we should instead look to the structure and context to see where we should understand the term as a proper name.
IF what you say here is correct - I concede the point.
I am going to check you out.
I need a source for hebrew, unlike you who actually know it.
WILLOWTREE:
I also submit that the rendering . . . is motivated by an 'a priori' theological position brought into the translation/debate
Amlodhi:
Yours may be, but I have no emotional investment here. It wouldn't make a bit of difference to me if the "first man" was referred to in Genesis as "Adam B. Finkelmeier, esquire" all the way through. But he isn't, so I prefer to base my opinions on:
No emotion except in your response - concede the point

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Amlodhi, posted 07-25-2004 9:54 PM Amlodhi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Amlodhi, posted 07-27-2004 12:01 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3075 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 89 of 90 (128191)
07-27-2004 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Amlodhi
07-27-2004 12:01 PM


Yes, check it out. Then couple this with the fact that you were apparently unable to provide me with any OT reference where a proper name was prefixed with the definite article.
I have conceded the point out of respect to your level of knowledge.
Dr. Scott, the brightest hebrew scholar in the world, says the definite article specifies the actual creation of "dm"/Odom/ahm to be separate and distinct from every other creation.
No amount of grammatical twisting can erase "dm" to mean "ish" except if a 'a priori' theological or other agenda is operating.
You can surely count on me verifying your claim that the definite article renders "dm" to translate "ish".
Only your Ezekiel reference procured the concession.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Amlodhi, posted 07-27-2004 12:01 PM Amlodhi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Amlodhi, posted 07-28-2004 1:13 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
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