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Author Topic:   Demons and such
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 1997 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 31 of 39 (50626)
08-15-2003 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Jake22
08-14-2003 3:49 PM


Jake22 writes:

I'd rather be wrong because I put too much trust in what I believe to be the word of God than to be wrong because I doubted a seemingly clear account. ... In the meantime, though, I'll most likely choose a literal interpretation by default.


Hello again Jake,

This sparked something in me. A stance which reminds me of where I was once upon a time. To make a long story short, literal interpretation of Genesis is not as simple as it sounds. In fact, analysis of biblical cosmology has consumed thousands of hours of my free time over that past decade. Not terribly efficient research by university standards I suppose, but I have no idea where to go in order to get spoonfed what I have learned. Thus, I feel compelled to share with others what I have garnered, so that they may get it quickly and devote their own lives to something more practical.

Anyway, to state the high point of all this, the cosmological views of biblical authors appear to parallel those of the established science of their respective times. Thus, biblical cosmology cannot be stated in simple terms, but evolves over the timeline. Genesis reveals at least two traditions, one older that the other, and a possible third which was apparently pretty much up to date. The author(s) did a pretty good job of weaving it all together in such a way that it might read in an entertaining and informative way (to ancient Hebrew readers, NOT modern English readers!!). Where it was impossible to blend the old oral traditions, the compiler simply placed them side by side (or one after the other) in much the same way as the traditions of Noah's flood and the promise to Abram were laid end to end.

I keep writing outside the Nutshell, don't I?

OK. Here it is.

Biblical Creationism Evolved
It seems to have kept pace (some distance to the rear) with "modern" science regarding details of how the universe is put together. The one consistent factor has been, "God did it." Otherwise, the cosmos imagined by the authors of Genesis is entirely different from the one we imagine today. That becomes a problem for the literalist. Few are true literalists. Almost immediately upon reading Genesis for themselves they cannot accept it as written. Then they look to the Hebrew language (which doesn't help the literalist case). They end up changing the definition of words, reordering the sequence of events, and reversing the relative motion of things, in order to squeeze Genesis into a modern cosmological mold. As if this were not insult enough they go on to claim that the "original" manuscripts of Genesis were completely inerrant. Conveniently, for that argument, the original manuscripts are long lost.

But it's a fascinating study and the Hebrew brings it to life in a way that English never could. I'm sure you will enjoy the journey.

db

------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?


This message is a reply to:
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greyline
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 39 (50631)
08-15-2003 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Jake22
08-14-2003 3:49 PM


I'd rather be wrong because I put too much trust in what I believe to be the word of God than to be wrong because I doubted a seemingly clear account.

Putting aside the fact that the account is not actually clear, and contradicts itself, I have to ask: maybe God actually wants us to use our brains as we survey his universe, and delve into its mysteries and formulate theories that explain how things came to be. We only get one life - I like to think that I'm trying to live mine with my eyes open.

If formal evolution were older than 150 and/or repeatable...

The age of the theory (given we're not talking about something that was theorised this morning) doesn't logically have any bearing on whether evolution happened.

Repeatability refers to experimentation not theories. Repeatability is used to gather evidence for (or against) a theory - the mechanisms of evolution have been demonstrated in the lab so I don't see the problem here.

In any case, once again, the fact that evolution generally works on a timescale that is outside human experience logically has no bearing on whether evolution actually happened.

My point here is that I don't think your reasons for rejecting evolution are good ones (ie. logical ones). But maybe you have other reasons.

------------------
o--greyline--o


This message is a reply to:
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chinger
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 39 (50742)
08-16-2003 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by crashfrog
08-14-2003 8:44 PM


Re: One more thing...
You may be correct,maybe there are no demons,but people become inspired by a spirit of some type,many people think they have been touched by the holy spirit and become very religious.
We have something like over 600 different denominations today,apparently the bible is very confusing,many of these people think they are doing what god wants them to do.
Has anyone on this discussion board ever felt the holy spirit?
Or is it just inspiration from a different kind of spirit,is there a spirit world ?

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truthlover
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 34 of 39 (50763)
08-17-2003 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by chinger
08-16-2003 8:37 PM


Re: One more thing...
Has anyone on this discussion board ever felt the holy spirit?

Yeah, me.

I also once had a roommate in the military (gay, interestingly enough) who at least feigned demon possession pretty well. Due to a very stupid mistake by a military doctor, he on convalescent leave and taking pain pills daily (codeine).

One day I came home and he had cut himself and used the blood to make an upside down cross on the message board on our door. The room had a strong odor that he described as dead animals, and that is what it smelled like.

For a couple days he screamed if I touched him, and since I was a new, zealous, somewhat-Kenneth-Hagin/Copeland-style Christian () at the time, I tried to cast the demon out of him. (This was 1984.) It didn't work, so I read the Bible to him, figuring I'd torment him rather than him torment me. He screamed and fussed, scratched at his eyes, complained about the lights, threw things at me, threatened to kill me in my sleep, etc.

I had the distinct feeling he was faking it, although I couldn't explain the smell, which lingered the whole two days he did this. Then he just quit, saying that he had snapped out of a daze and couldn't remember the last two days. He claimed it started when he saw red eyes above the refrigerator as he came home, and that it was a demon sent by a group he had been part of that sacrificed animals.

As an aside, I lived in Europe for six years from 84 to 90, and I had a couple African friends and a couple friends from Surinam. It did seem pretty universal that people from those countries have some amazing stories about zombies, "demons" in church services, and some unusual feats that these demon-possessed people did.

I also read a Newsweek or Times article back in the early 80's about a Haiti ceremony that was amazingly positive. The journalist actually participated, including licking a poisonous frog (if I remember correctly), and got caught up in the whole ceremony. If demons don't exist, there are certainly experiences that people have that are right along the lines of what is described as demonic in the Scriptures.


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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 35 of 39 (50764)
08-17-2003 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by truthlover
08-17-2003 10:14 AM


Re: One more thing...
The journalist actually participated, including licking a poisonous frog (if I remember correctly), and got caught up in the whole ceremony.

Hallucinogenic frog, at least. Brain chemistry can do some very odd things, and I don't know of a single culture that doesn't use something to manipulate their brain chemistry, very often in the context of religion.

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Newborn
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 39 (51148)
08-19-2003 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Coragyps
08-17-2003 11:44 AM


Re: One more thing...
Of course it can.Our brain is a quantum computer and some matter will enable more strong quantum fluctuations than other.But even without halucinogenics the fluctuations are there.
Craziness isn´t the same thing as a machine near the state of end its battery(forgive my bad english).
Craziness is just greater sensitivity to quantum fluctuations that were already in the brain(only a theory of mine,i don´t understand much of medicine.)
I see matter as a quantum fluctuation dielectric(specially in our brains).

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 699 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 37 of 39 (51159)
08-19-2003 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Newborn
08-19-2003 2:21 PM


Our brain is a quantum computer

No, it's not. There are no quantum computations occuring in the human brain. It's simply a neural net composed of neurons which are, essentially, Turing machines, I think? Computer scientists, help me out? Neurons have state, and they count, so that makes them automata of some kind, right?

Your theory may be fun, and informed by Star Trek terminology, but it bears little if any resemblance to the findings of modern neuroscience. The good news is, the brain is even more interesting than your theory predicts. I suggest you do further reading on the subject.


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Suravian666
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 39 (94275)
03-23-2004 10:28 PM


Help
I'm new to this website and was wondering if any of you knew about rain devils. I am the second in command of the fire demons and would like to request your assistace in the knowlage of the rain devils!

My name is suravian the Decietful and I am a demonic mage/stratagist. The reason that is that my current mission involves diplomatic issues with them. please help I am on asignment from Mortana the Hateful.

[This message has been edited by Suravian666, 03-23-2004]


Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 699 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 39 of 39 (94312)
03-24-2004 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Suravian666
03-23-2004 10:28 PM


My name is Roderick Van Helter and I'm a 6th-level Chaotic Neutral Half-Elf Rogue. Watch out or I'll totally flank your ass, and my sneak attack damage is +3d6!

This message is a reply to:
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