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Author Topic:   Jesus the rabbi ?
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 42 (56410)
09-19-2003 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Rubten
09-18-2003 5:10 PM


I assume the Master of Ceremonies is the father of the bride; if tradition dictates. If Jesus was invited, as was his mother, why then would his mother worry about whether or not the wine had run out if they were just guests?

Have you ever been married? I assume not. I was, however, a month and a half ago, and I'll tell you this: People at your wedding consider it their solemn duty to make sure you're not worrying about anything.

After all Jesus's mom may have worried about the wine level because she was a lush, and wanted more wine.

At the end of the passage, the Master of Ceremonies calls Jesus the bridegroom and applaudes the fact that the good wine was given after the lesser wine had been served.

You're making an implication that isn't in either version of the text presented. Jesus isn't called the bridegroom.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Rubten, posted 09-18-2003 5:10 PM Rubten has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Zealot, posted 11-13-2003 7:25 AM crashfrog has responded

  
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 149 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 17 of 42 (56467)
09-19-2003 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Rubten
09-18-2003 7:22 PM


"The governor of the feast called the bridegroom", why the text not use Jesus's name if it meant Jesus? IIRC everywhere else in the Gospels, Jesus is referred to by name, or as He.

Have you ever been married? I assume not. I was, however, a month and a half ago

Congratulations, Crashfrog.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Rubten, posted 09-18-2003 7:22 PM Rubten has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Rubten, posted 09-19-2003 12:13 PM Dr Jack has not yet responded

  
Rubten
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 42 (56497)
09-19-2003 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Dr Jack
09-19-2003 10:19 AM


Been married three years.
Jesus is called a Rabbi in the new testament. look it up. I have been married three years and as a matter of fact got married in Italy. (So i know a little somethintg about the need of wine!) There is no need to make personal attacks.

Jese was married. Period. Show me where it says he is not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Dr Jack, posted 09-19-2003 10:19 AM Dr Jack has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 09-19-2003 6:04 PM Rubten has not yet responded

  
phil
Unregistered


Message 19 of 42 (56556)
09-19-2003 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Rubten
09-18-2003 7:22 PM


Why would Jesus be Responsible to "make wine" if it is not his wedding? Showing charity? C'mon. Opne your mind a little. it was his wedding. He was married that day! Where was the wedding anyway? When you answer that, ask yourself where Lazarus was "believed" to have risen from the grave. Then ask yourself if Lazarus was not Mary Magdalene's brother. IF that is not far along enough, then ask yourself why Mary Magdalene is treated so well by Jesus? Why are his disciples jealous of "their" relationship? Go back and read all the passages that deal with Mary Magdalene, then use some logic and sense.

Open my mind to what? Something based entirely on false premises? Even Crashfrog and Mr. Jack agree with me here. It's not a matter of opening your mind to something, it's simple reading comprehension. Also, I do not know of ANY passages (having read all the gospels several times) where it is indicated that Jesus' disciples are jealous of Mary Magdalene. I get the sense that your theory is based upon da Vinci's Last Supper, painted a millenium and a half later. Also, why would Jesus tell Mary his "time had not yet come" if it were his wedding? And Mary wouldn't be "troubling him" by asking him to make wine if it were his own wedding.

Does anyone agree with Rubten here? If so, then maybe there is something to his theory here, but I just don't see it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Rubten, posted 09-18-2003 7:22 PM Rubten has not yet responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 42 (56562)
09-19-2003 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rubten
09-19-2003 12:13 PM


I have been married three years and as a matter of fact got married in Italy.

Tutti bene, paisano!

(They closed the bar early at my wedding - lame. Wish Jesus had been there, they had plenty of water.)

Nonetheless:

Jese was married. Period. Show me where it says he is not.

"Jese" might very well have been married, for all I know. (Would that be the origin of the song "Jese's Girl"? I hadn't realized that was biblical.)

But no reading of the text supports the idea that Jesus was married. You've failed to explain how you come to the conclusion that the bridegroom referred to is Jesus. It could be Jesus, yes, because they don't specifically name him, but then, why don't they ever again mention the fact that Jesus isn't single? Why don't they ever say something like "And thus Jesus had a hard day, and went home to have a beer with his wife." Or something. And if Jesus was married, why would generations of Catholic priests insist for hundreds of years later that he wasn't married and insist that their priests not marry either?

The text doesn't support a married Jesus. Period. I'm about as unrepentant an atheist as there could be, and even I can see that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Rubten, posted 09-19-2003 12:13 PM Rubten has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3003 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 21 of 42 (56564)
09-19-2003 6:11 PM


I actually think that, from the Gospel accounts (including non-canonical), a stronger case can be made for Jesus being gay or bi than there can be for him being married.

The wedding at Cana being Jesus' wedding was dealt with in the series of books about the Holy Grail being Jesus blood by Baigent and Lincoln, and we all know how poor they were.

Brian.

[This message has been edited by Brian, 09-19-2003]


    
Rubten
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 42 (56676)
09-20-2003 5:14 PM


Had Jesus not been married...
there surely would have been plenty said about this fact. If Jesus had not been married, I believe that the Pharisee's would have had something to hang their hat on. If the BIG J had been a true follower of the Torah and his parents adherants of the known beliefs/traditions wouldn't Mary and Joseph married jesus off at some point? What about the whole thing about multiplying? Did that not apply to Jesus? And yes, the church can be wrong about Jesus being married. They were wrong about the Sun revolving around the Earth for 500 years!
  
Rubten
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 42 (56678)
09-20-2003 5:31 PM


Is HEnot the BRIDEGROOM?
Mar 2:19 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.
Mar 2:20 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

In reference to "Jese's Girl" by Rick Springfield, it is the story of Jesus and Mary Magdalene. Read the lyrics.

Jessie is a friend
Yeah, I know he’s been a good friend of mine
But lately something’s changed that ain’t hard to define
Jessie’s got himself a girl and I wanna make her mine

And she’s watchin’ him with those eyes
And she’s lovin’ him with that body, I just know it
And he’s holding her in his arms late, late at night

You know I wish that I had Jessie’s girl
I wish that I had Jessie’s girl
Where can I find a woman like that

I play along with the charade
That doesn’t seem to be a reason to change
You know I feel so dirty when they start talkin’ cute
I wanna tell her that I love her, but the point is probably moot

‘Cause she’s watchin’ him with those eyes
And she’s lovin’ him with that body, I just know it
And he’s holding her in his arms late, late at night

You know I wish that I had Jessie’s girl
I wish that I had Jessie’s girl
Where can I find a woman like that

Like Jessie’s girl
I wish that I had Jessie’s girl
Where can I find a woman
Where can I find a woman like that

And I’m lookin’ in the mirror all the time
Wonderin’ what she don’t see in me
And I’ve been funny, I’ve been cool with the lines
Ain’t that the way love supposed to be

Tell me
Where can I find a woman like that

You know I wish that I had Jessie’s girl
I wish that I had Jessie’s girl
I want Jessie’s girl
Where can I find a woman like that

Like Jessie’s girl
I wish that I had Jessie’s girl
I want, I want Jessie’s girl


Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by phil, posted 09-20-2003 5:44 PM Rubten has not yet responded

  
phil
Unregistered


Message 24 of 42 (56682)
09-20-2003 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Rubten
09-20-2003 5:31 PM


Are you serious?
Mark 2:19-20 is a parable. Now, Jesus might be comparing himself to the bridegroom in the parable, but that in no way means he is married.

And I see nothing in the "Jessie's Girl" lyrics that point to Jesus and Mary Magdalene. Please tell me you're just joking. . . .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Rubten, posted 09-20-2003 5:31 PM Rubten has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Rubten, posted 09-21-2003 2:10 AM You have not yet responded

    
Rubten
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 42 (56733)
09-21-2003 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by phil
09-20-2003 5:44 PM


Re: Are you serious?
No, I was not serious... Please have a sense of Humor. I misspelled J's name. I was running with the joke. I can take it right along with the next guy/gal.

Why could he not be speaking of himself in that parable? Why refer to himself as a BRIDEGROOM and not something else? He deliberately chose, or someone chose I am not sure, to use the BRIDEGROOM. Why? And why align yourself with something so "obviously" not you?

Back to Mr. Springfield... Think of Jesus while you sing this song to yourself, and picture Mary as his girl...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by phil, posted 09-20-2003 5:44 PM phil has not yet responded

  
Rubten
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 42 (56734)
09-21-2003 2:13 AM


Who's wedding was it anyway?
Can someone answer that question?
  
Rubten
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 42 (64733)
11-06-2003 11:28 AM


Did I shut this Forum Down or what?
Closed huh? No more posts?
Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by RebWlmJames, posted 11-06-2003 12:41 PM Rubten has not yet responded
 Message 29 by RebWlmJames, posted 11-06-2003 12:53 PM Rubten has not yet responded

  
RebWlmJames
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 42 (64739)
11-06-2003 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Rubten
11-06-2003 11:28 AM


Jesus as rabbi
Someone mentioned that the Sage Hillel I is referred to as "rabbi" in rabbinic literature. Can you direct me to that source.

As far as I know, the term rav and rabbi only came in use after 70 CE.

A good source would be Pirkei Avot, translated as "The Ethics of the Fathers." This tractate of the Mishna records the chain of tradition from Moses on down. None of the sages mentioned who thrived before 70 CE are called "rabbi."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Rubten, posted 11-06-2003 11:28 AM Rubten has not yet responded

  
RebWlmJames
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 42 (64740)
11-06-2003 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Rubten
11-06-2003 11:28 AM


Jesus as rabbi
Someone mentioned that the Sage Hillel I is referred to as "rabbi" in rabbinic literature. Can you direct me to that source.

As far as I know, the term rav and rabbi only came in use after 70 CE.

A good source would be Pirkei Avot, translated as "The Ethics of the Fathers." This tractate of the Mishna records the chain of tradition from Moses on down. None of the sages mentioned who thrived before 70 CE is called "rabbi."

[This message has been edited by RebWlmJames, 11-06-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Rubten, posted 11-06-2003 11:28 AM Rubten has not yet responded

  
jes
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 42 (65297)
11-09-2003 8:51 AM


Jesus the rabb?
I started this thread because it seemed to me that JC being termed "rabbi" in the gospels was anachronistic,and knowing nothing of 1st.century Judaism requested more information.Since then I have read Hyam Macccoby's The Mythmaker".He states {p.21 that the Pharisees were known as sages pre70ce and were only termed "rabbis" later.Geza Vermes in"The Changing Faces of Jesus" says {p.25} that"it is questionable whether the term "rabbi" in the specialized meaning was current in the early decades of the 1st. century ce..The great Jewish masters who lived in the age of Jesus Christ,Hillel,Shammai,Gamaliel,are all called "elders" not "rabbis'. I suspect anachronism !
Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 11-09-2003 3:35 PM jes has not yet responded

  
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