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Author Topic:   The Whole Jesus Thing
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 235 of 286 (159052)
11-13-2004 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Yaro
11-13-2004 11:39 AM


Appreciation for Yaro
Yaro,
I think you've tackled an important but obviously difficult subject. Reading your posts I find you giving the clearest statement of the problems I feel are inherent in the Judeo Christian concept of the human condition. I want to thank you for this thread and I want to encourage you to continue it.
I can understand why scientifically naive people might be comfortable with the Christian myth, but I still don't understand why people like C.S. Lewis who know better revert to believing. So in a fragmentary format of an online debate forum I don't think we can expect a lot, and yet I find much of interest and value in this thread, particularly in the clarity with which you demonstrate the contradictions of the Christian myth solution.
Thanks, and lets keep this thread going!
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Yaro, posted 11-13-2004 11:39 AM Yaro has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 238 of 286 (159085)
11-13-2004 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Yaro
11-13-2004 11:39 AM


I found myself reiterating my points constantly, and the people on the other side doing the same.
Of course, this may be because that's really all there is to the argument :/
Yaro,
I think part of the problem is that to understand this we need to look at the development of primitive religions. This requires backgrounds in anthropology and comparative religion and those fields don’t seem to be nearly as well represented on this forum compared to science and Christianity. Well, the mission statement for the EvC forum selects for that.
I remember reading, so long ago I’ve forgotten who or what I was reading, that primitive hunters felt a kinship with all animals and even plants. They recognized their dependence on game animals felt gratitude and guilt when killing for food and so would offer part of the dead animal to the spirit(s) of the animal(s) to propitiate their guilt and to beseech favor of good hunting in the future.
I don’t know if this view has been supported in later work so I offer it only as a possible avenue of exploration for the development of sacrifice in religion.
I also don’t know what research has been done on the transformation of primitive religion into the religion of the city states. I’m sure a lot has been done somewhere in academia but I’m ignorant at this point. It does seem that human consciousness has deep long standing issues of guilt and that this has been one factor in the development of religion.
I think a late developed mature religion such as Christianity is not going to offer much insight into it’s mechanisms. I think we have to go further back but of course we have little in the way evidence so we are working on conjecture. I have a philosophical bent and I enjoy that but that may be unsatisfactory for many contributors.
In eastern though we find other interpretations of sacrifice having to do with the theme of liberation and so sacrifice is not a real loss but rather a giving up that which holds us in bondage, but that would probably be off topic in this thread.
What I am saying is that a debate between atheistic and fundamentalists will tend to be just a sharpening of the differences that will lead to little understandings. To really illuminate this topic would require more academic explorations of the subject. I hope that happens. I would be grateful for any recommended readings on primitive or comparative religions that address the role of sacrifice.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Yaro, posted 11-13-2004 11:39 AM Yaro has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 251 of 286 (159359)
11-14-2004 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by jar
11-13-2004 10:55 PM


Re: So what is the issue?
First, GOD can forgive sin. Can we agree on that much?
If we are limiting the discussion to Christian theology I'll accept that.
I use the eastern model of divinity and there it's not sin but karma and in that system at the level of samsara karma rules. What can happen is that divinity awakens from it's dream of an individual and at the level of nirvana karma doesn't apply at all. So I would say forgiveness of sins is a good thing but not the ultimate good. The chief grace is awakening and that is by grace and renders sin moot.
So I'll give you a provisional agreement.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 11-13-2004 10:55 PM jar has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 257 of 286 (159436)
11-14-2004 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by jar
11-14-2004 5:02 PM


Re: So what is the issue?
The fact that he lived, that GOD became man, walked among us, taught us, was man with all of the limitations that entails, was the sacrifice.
Jar,
There are Hindu's who accept Jesus as a genuine avatar, an incarnation of the deity, but they accept many avatars. My strongest suspicion {and given the state of the evidence, suspicions about a historical Jesus is about as strong as I can warrant} is the there was a teacher who awoke to the nondual but his life and teaching were cut short and only a few recieved his understanding. The Gospel of Thomas indicates that some tried to grasp nonduality.
Being saved or forgiven to me means learning WHO has sinned and learning that there is sin but no sinner is forgiveness of sin. There was never an entity who sinned and neither an entity to be saved and that realization is what is called salvation in Buddhist and Vedantic teachings.
The talk of dying and of losing the self in the Gospels could be a misunderstood artifact of an awakened individual trying to explain to followers that there is no permanent self. The Buddha had decades to teach and work with his followers and was generously supported by his society. It appears that Jesus had only a few years to try to teach admidst widespread social upheavel.
So I'll offer my viewpoint of Jesus as a misunderstood Avatar whose identity was co opted by the Roman church to maintain a social order for hundreds of years.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by jar, posted 11-14-2004 5:02 PM jar has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 273 of 286 (160842)
11-18-2004 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by dpardo
11-18-2004 1:22 AM


Re: Speculation
There is at least 1 poster over at Yahoo's JesusMysteries group who asserts that Mark wrote the crucifixion as an exegesis on the 22nd Psalm. This is coming from a mythicist position. I believe Doherty suggests the same thing on his Jesus Puzzle site.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by dpardo, posted 11-18-2004 1:22 AM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by dpardo, posted 11-18-2004 2:16 AM lfen has replied
 Message 282 by ramoss, posted 11-19-2004 2:56 PM lfen has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 274 of 286 (160843)
11-18-2004 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by ramoss
11-17-2004 7:33 AM


Re: So what is the issue?
I can't PROVE that little green men have been abducting people either.
Hah, but remember they did RETURN them! Surely that counts for something!
They are curious little buggers but only borrow us for little while otherwise we would be completely clueless... oh wait
never mind,
lfen
This message has been edited by lfen, 11-18-2004 01:51 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by ramoss, posted 11-17-2004 7:33 AM ramoss has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 275 of 286 (160845)
11-18-2004 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by arachnophilia
11-17-2004 8:16 PM


Re: Speculation
Another speculation. This from my brother, and I imagine others have thought of this. Jesus was an individual who awakened to the nondual. The Kingdom of Heaven within was an understanding of Nirvana in Samsara and the unity with the Father being a realization of nonduality. He died very young and his teachings were misunderstood and recast in terms more familiar to the Jews, Greeks, and Romans of his day.
I can't support this but then I don't think there is enough evidence to convincingly support the mythicist, historicist, or religious views on Jesus. Though I give the nod to the historicist position. Individuals pick the version that suits them.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by arachnophilia, posted 11-17-2004 8:16 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by arachnophilia, posted 11-18-2004 3:48 PM lfen has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 277 of 286 (160855)
11-18-2004 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by dpardo
11-18-2004 2:16 AM


Re: Speculation
Not an argument at all. It's information about the locations of an argument for the purpose of showing there are several ways of viewing the material. It's up to each individual if they find it interesting enough to pursue or not.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by dpardo, posted 11-18-2004 2:16 AM dpardo has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 281 of 286 (161371)
11-19-2004 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by arachnophilia
11-18-2004 3:48 PM


Re: Speculation
however, this appears to be a gnostic interpretation. maybe it's closer to home, but i think it's still just an interpretation.
Oh, yeah it's definately speculation I don't think there is any way to tell. The way I understand gnosticism is that it is quite different than nondual so I don't believe I'm offering a gnostic interpretation.
My interpretation is more along the lines of Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta.
I'd like to hear more about the Jewish interpretation though. I don't know anything about that.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by arachnophilia, posted 11-18-2004 3:48 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by arachnophilia, posted 11-19-2004 5:40 PM lfen has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 283 of 286 (161530)
11-19-2004 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by ramoss
11-19-2004 2:56 PM


Re: Speculation
Well, an exegesis with addition of a mistranslation to boot?
That is a mythicist position that Mark was doing a midrash on the OT to explain Paul's Jesus and used the text of the psalm to contruct the events of the crucifixion. It seems you are adding that they used a mistranslation, or introduced a mistranslation in the midrash?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by ramoss, posted 11-19-2004 2:56 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by ramoss, posted 11-19-2004 3:30 PM lfen has not replied

  
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