The Whole Jesus Thing

How is Jesus dieing for us the 'ultimate gift'?Was not Jesus God? So God killed himself so we could go to heven?How could God kill himself? Why does he need to apease himself with sacrifice, let alone his own sacrifice?Heck, why does he need apeasing at all? Couldn't god just make everyone 'saved', why does he need to kill himself for it?I saw a websit once that had the quote:God loves us so much that he sent himself to be killed to apease himself so he woulden't have to burn us all in hell. If we don't belive this, he will still burn us up in hell because he loves us so much.Can anyone explain the mechanics, and/or logic about how salvation is supposed to work?

Here's how I understand it. We all sin, period. Because of this our sins must be atoned for either by us in hell, or by Jesus on the cross. Jesus takes on the sin of the world thus allowing us to enter heaven without sin.I've got another question to pose that follows along these lines. If Jesus died to cleanse our sins, why does it matter if we believe in him? It either happened or it didn't, why should it matter if you believe he took our sins or not?

Another question: How does Jesus dieing atone our sins? I sin, Jesus gets crucified on a cross. I don't see any connection between the two events. How can another man/deity take the punishment for another man? Punishment only makes sense when directed at the guilty. It seems God could either punish us or forgive us, or both. No need to murder man/deities.Let's say for the sake of argument that another man can take the punishment and atone my sins. Why would I want him too? Why would I want an innocent man to be murdered and punished for my sins? It seems the greatest gift you can give to Jesus would be accepting your punishment so he won't have to. Some say he already paid for everybody's sins. How does believing he exists have anything to do with him paying for my sins?

No christians or Creos wanna give this topic a go?I think it may yeild interesting results.

May I humbly suggest that if this thread is to take any theologically plotted course that someone with knowledge of the Jewish ideas relative to the period 500 BCE through 70 CE and regarding atonement educate us regarding sacrifices appropriate for absolving sin, and then the rest of us sail on from there.[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 12-08-2003]

Sounds like a great Idea!I have allways been curious as to why god desired sacrifice at all. At the end of the flood it states that the smell of burning meat was pleasing to him (god). Anyone out there know what the whole idea surrounding this is, so we can then explore the jesus myth further?

Yaro:I think all gods commonly worshipped at about the same time in Canaan and the Levant required burnt offerings of animal parts. Most of the temples unearthed in that region follow approximately the same floor plan (three rooms) with about the same entrance portico, column style, etc. Many of the temples, shrines, and offering mounts unearthed so far were outfitted with sacrificial altars resembling those specifically detailed in the Bible.My understanding is that various animals and various specific body parts and pieces were prefered by various gods. By the time Leviticus was written, apparently the sacrificial ceremonies performed for YHWH required very specific animals and animal parts for specific atonements, etc.However, I am not educated sufficiently to render theological conclusions regarding the appropriate offerings for "atonement of sin" to answer the original question posed in this thread. I only assume there is a forum member who has answers or opinions relative to the symbolism apparent in such references as "Lamb," "Blood of the Lamb," "Sins of the World," etc.[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 12-08-2003]

Thought I would revive this thread with a bit of a rephrase.Simply put, why was it thought by ancient peoples, including the Isrealits, that their gods liked burnt meat? Where did the concept come from? Any ideas guesses?And as for the christians, I would really like to understand why the christian god was so interested in burnt lambs and such?

Yaro: I do not know, but let's consider a few things:1) The first act of creation: "Let there be light!" What is the only ancient manmade source of light? Fire. What better way to worship a god than to attempt to imitate his first creation.2) An ancient, and archaeologically documented Canaanite ritual, also commonly practiced by Phoenicians and Carthageneans (same root stock) was to "pass the first born child though the flame" or in other words, the sacrifice of children by fire. This ritual is referred to in the Hebrew Bible as one of the abominations practiced by Canaanite Ba-alists. As you know, old habits die hard. Take for example the favored method of Christian conversion of pagans ... to encorporate their ritualistic practices via a more acceptable rite.3) As far as "fat" being used for the offering, what better fuel to sustain the burning of flesh to ash than fat? Ever burned a burger? Which burgers burn to cinder faster ... ground round or high-fat ground beef?

Real gods, like real men, enjoy a good barbecue.
Some gods were simply deified heroes of the past. Some gods were living, breathing persons. In fact, Moses and virtually all Israeli royals, were classed as gods. So, why would the ruling class demand that people give up the best of their livestock to pay fines for sin (infractions of the law)? Have you guessed it already?In a primitive society, meat is money. If the people are naieve enough to believe that the sky spirit demands it, so much the better. Meanwhile, the pristhood grows in wealth and power, which it shares, of course, with the One selected to represent their God: The Priest-King.db

I think Jesus died for us to set an example. He basically lived a life that we should follow. Sacrifice so others could benefit.

By whom? According to whom?

quote:

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I think Jesus died for us to set an example. He basically lived a life that we should follow. Sacrifice so others could benefit.

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True. But so did 1st officer Spock, and he was much more consistant about it.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

And Spock rose from the dead, we have proof on film. ------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

See Exodus 7:1 and Psalm 82:6.