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Author Topic:   Creationist model
tesla
Member (Idle past 1910 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 91 of 242 (446491)
01-06-2008 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Larni
01-06-2008 1:50 PM


Re: my creation model
to all who read:
I'm sorry for those i have confused, i just simply want you to accept that reality is real.
waves are real. science is real. energy is real.
nothing can exist outside of energy, true, but the human mind can only accept what it is willing to accept.
if i try to override your point of viewing the potential exist for the mind to corrupt itself and the person go insane.
so please, i have tried to withdraw so that your minds can come to reason within its ability only, because the mind cannot fathom what it cannot reason.
i withdraw myself from this thread, and if it is easier for you all to cope, then close it.
i can only reason what my mind will accept just as any of you can only come to those conclusions without insanity.
God be with us all.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Larni, posted 01-06-2008 1:50 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Larni, posted 01-06-2008 2:21 PM tesla has not replied
 Message 93 by sidelined, posted 01-06-2008 2:53 PM tesla has replied
 Message 148 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-11-2008 5:16 AM tesla has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 171 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 92 of 242 (446501)
01-06-2008 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by tesla
01-06-2008 2:10 PM


Re: my creation model
So no model then?
Oh well, bye.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by tesla, posted 01-06-2008 2:10 PM tesla has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 6225 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 93 of 242 (446518)
01-06-2008 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by tesla
01-06-2008 2:10 PM


Re: my creation model
tesla
I'm sorry for those i have confused, i just simply want you to accept that reality is real.
Then present your case establishing what reality means will you? Do not think that you can just come in here and demand that your assertions be accepted as gospel and beyond argument if you please.
Make your case and answer the criticisms as though they were a source of learning {they are} and defend what you are trying to establish.
You may find that these arguments have long since been demolished or you may{rarely}find that you have a new line of thinking that has not been considered.
waves are real. science is real. energy is real.
Demonstrate how this is so.
nothing can exist outside of energy, true, but the human mind can only accept what it is willing to accept.
And acceptance is gained through having the better argument not through demanding. Nature is under no obligation to give her secrets to you whole cloth and you should expect to have your ego humbled quite handily if you try.
if i try to override your point of viewing the potential exist for the mind to corrupt itself and the person go insane.
Not in the least. To come to this forum and debate by force of argument and well reasoned logic is necessary if you wish to make your point of view the one that prevails. However do not come in here,full of pride, and expect that you have the answers and that the rest of the world is deluded.
so please, i have tried to withdraw so that your minds can come to reason within its ability only, because the mind cannot fathom what it cannot reason.
I feel that you are only withdrawing because you have come up against opposition that is questioning the assumptions you have made.This is not like being a priest where the congregation hangs on your words and never questions your authority nor your reasoning.
i can only reason what my mind will accept just as any of you can only come to those conclusions without insanity.
See! Here you are playing the child who whines because the other kids won't let him play by his own rules. Perhaps you have accepted things without properly thinking them through. Perhaps not. But if you are going to walk away,sniveling, without presenting the model so be it.
I remind you of your first post in this thread
i have been hopeing to discuss and debate this evidence thoroughly for a long time, i bid you rahvin, to help me debate the truth of the evidence , and i will be as clear as possible in my relaying the evidence before you.
should we begin?
You now have a chance to debate but not once have you brought forth evidence. Perhaps you should bring it forth and we can see if it can withstand scrutiny and questioning. I think it is time to begin.

"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere."
Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by tesla, posted 01-06-2008 2:10 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by tesla, posted 01-06-2008 3:07 PM sidelined has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1910 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 94 of 242 (446521)
01-06-2008 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by sidelined
01-06-2008 2:53 PM


Re: my creation model
you say reality is tentative. i say reality is definite.
that's the debate.
if reality is definite, then it cannot come from something that is not there.
if reality is tentative, then its possible nothing is real.
if I'm correct, and reality is definite, then the law is: nothing can exist outside of energy. which leads to the law of existence.
if your right and reality is tentative, its possible we don't exist and my law is refuted.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by sidelined, posted 01-06-2008 2:53 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 01-06-2008 3:13 PM tesla has replied
 Message 98 by sidelined, posted 01-06-2008 3:21 PM tesla has replied
 Message 119 by nwr, posted 01-06-2008 4:26 PM tesla has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 156 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 242 (446522)
01-06-2008 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by tesla
01-06-2008 3:07 PM


Re: my creation model
if reality is definite, then it cannot come from something that is not there.
Why?

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by tesla, posted 01-06-2008 3:07 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by tesla, posted 01-06-2008 3:17 PM jar has replied
 Message 99 by Rahvin, posted 01-06-2008 3:22 PM jar has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1910 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 96 of 242 (446525)
01-06-2008 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
01-06-2008 3:13 PM


Re: my creation model
because a car cant be driven if only a thought of a car is there. the car either IS or IS NOT. there is no in between.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 01-06-2008 3:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 01-06-2008 3:20 PM tesla has not replied
 Message 149 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-11-2008 5:36 AM tesla has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 156 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 97 of 242 (446526)
01-06-2008 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by tesla
01-06-2008 3:17 PM


Re: my creation model
That is not an answer. Please explain "if reality is definite, then it cannot come from something that is not there."
Hint, there are a bunch of terms in there you will have to support.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by tesla, posted 01-06-2008 3:17 PM tesla has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 6225 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 98 of 242 (446527)
01-06-2008 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by tesla
01-06-2008 3:07 PM


Re: my creation model
tesla
you say reality is tentative. i say reality is definite.
that's the debate
Yes but I have explained why reality is tentative by the standards of science investigation. All knowledge is tentative. Please take the time to answer the questions I gave you some posts back.
sidelined writes:
Tell me tesla. Is it or is it not reality that time moves faster at an elevation of 15,000 feet than at sea level? If not then perhaps you can explain why gravitational time dilation is wrong.
If you agree that this is the reality then please inform us what the reality of time actually is. If it is 3:00 pm at sea level but 2:59.999935 pm at 15000 feet then what is the "real" time?
In looking at the sun, due to the limit on the speed of light, we see the sun as it was 8 minutes ago. What is the "real" state of the sun right now then?
If you are correct and reality is definite then answer the questions so that we may understand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by tesla, posted 01-06-2008 3:07 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by tesla, posted 01-06-2008 3:34 PM sidelined has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4083
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.9


Message 99 of 242 (446528)
01-06-2008 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
01-06-2008 3:13 PM


Re: my creation model
quote:
if reality is definite, then it cannot come from something that is not there.
Why?
More to the point - why does the Universe need to "come from" anything? We know it exists, and we know that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. Why could the Universe not have always existed? Nothing in science says that it did not always exist in some form or another. Even the Big Bang doesn't say the Universe had a "beginning" per se, only that there is a point very far back in the past at which all dimensions including time existed as a single point - which does not mean that matter and energy did not exist, only that they existed in a different state at the singularity.
After all, tesla - you are proposing that some supreme being always existed. How do you rationalize that the Universe could not have always existed, but allow some other made-up entity to have always existed without special pleading?

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 01-06-2008 3:13 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by tesla, posted 01-06-2008 3:30 PM Rahvin has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1910 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 100 of 242 (446531)
01-06-2008 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Rahvin
01-06-2008 3:22 PM


Re: my creation model
After all, tesla - you are proposing that some supreme being always existed. How do you rationalize that the Universe could not have always existed, but allow some other made-up entity to have always existed without special pleading?
because order cannot come from chaos and exist. and order suggest intelligence.
do the math that chaotic energy could establish order. and the math that any ordered structure could just "exist" without direction.
that's how i arrived to the law I'm suggesting. if you accept that reality is "definite" then your accepting nothing can exist and be real outside of energy. if you say reality is definite and can exist outside energy, name one thing that does exist outside energy.
if you accept that nothing exist outside energy then its logical to try to determine what that energy is...so..apply it to scientific reason.
but you cant reason what you wont accept is there. which means is reality definite, or not?

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Rahvin, posted 01-06-2008 3:22 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 01-06-2008 3:40 PM tesla has replied
 Message 108 by Rahvin, posted 01-06-2008 4:04 PM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1910 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 101 of 242 (446533)
01-06-2008 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by sidelined
01-06-2008 3:21 PM


Re: my creation model
Yes but I have explained why reality is tentative by the standards of science investigation.
then the question your asking me is irrelevant since science accepts the possibility that nothing is real.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by sidelined, posted 01-06-2008 3:21 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by sidelined, posted 01-06-2008 4:22 PM tesla has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 156 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 102 of 242 (446538)
01-06-2008 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by tesla
01-06-2008 3:30 PM


Re: my creation model
because order cannot come from chaos and exist.
Why?

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by tesla, posted 01-06-2008 3:30 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by tesla, posted 01-06-2008 3:43 PM jar has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1910 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 103 of 242 (446541)
01-06-2008 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by jar
01-06-2008 3:40 PM


Re: my creation model
because chaos is absolute disorder.
the scientific term would be "apparent disorder"
which would mean that it IS order, but "appears" to be disorder

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 01-06-2008 3:40 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by jar, posted 01-06-2008 3:51 PM tesla has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 156 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 104 of 242 (446547)
01-06-2008 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by tesla
01-06-2008 3:43 PM


Re: my creation model
That is not an answer.
You said:
because order cannot come from chaos and exist.
The question is "Why?"
Explain this and this and this.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by tesla, posted 01-06-2008 3:43 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by tesla, posted 01-06-2008 3:52 PM jar has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1910 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 105 of 242 (446549)
01-06-2008 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by jar
01-06-2008 3:51 PM


Re: my creation model
your right jar, i forgot a word: direction.
order cannot come from chaos and exist without direction.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by jar, posted 01-06-2008 3:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 01-06-2008 3:56 PM tesla has replied

  
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