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Author Topic:   51 scientific facts that disprove the Bible
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 167 (498630)
02-12-2009 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by General Anubis
02-12-2009 8:12 AM


Re: One of the most pathetic lists I've ever seen
Hi General Anubis. A hearty welcome to EvC. Your responses appear to indicate that you are sincerely fair and balanced in your responses; a truth seeker, even. I hope we will see more of you here at EvC.
Perhaps when I get time I can comment on some of your points.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by General Anubis, posted 02-12-2009 8:12 AM General Anubis has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 820 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 122 of 167 (498632)
02-12-2009 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by General Anubis
02-12-2009 8:12 AM


Re: One of the most pathetic lists I've ever seen
Hi, fellow scavenger! Welcome to EvC!
You may get as much flak from the hard-core creationists as you're going to from the reality-based side....
as well as documented cases of unconditioned animals in their natural habitat not being frightened by the presence of humans.
Dodos and various seals and sea lions come to mind - early explorers used to walk up to them and kill them while other animals watched.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by General Anubis, posted 02-12-2009 8:12 AM General Anubis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by General Anubis, posted 02-12-2009 2:34 PM Coragyps has not replied

General Anubis
Junior Member (Idle past 5607 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 02-12-2009


Message 123 of 167 (498641)
02-12-2009 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Coragyps
02-12-2009 9:19 AM


Re: One of the most pathetic lists I've ever seen
Thanks for the warm welcome! (Hopefully it won't go from warm to heated! xD)
Yes, I'm quite sure that there are some creationists out there who would label me as a heretical compromiser between evolution and creationism, but I'm just following where the facts lead with an open mind.
Anyway, as a response to the dodos/seals/sea lions being cases of animals not being afraid of humans:
I have to say that the Bible verse mentioned is, in context, God telling man that he (man) is in a dominating position toward all animals. Walking up to an animal and killing it with little/no resistance would seem to support this claim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Coragyps, posted 02-12-2009 9:19 AM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by bluegenes, posted 02-12-2009 3:47 PM General Anubis has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3729 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 124 of 167 (498645)
02-12-2009 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by General Anubis
02-12-2009 8:12 AM


Re: One of the most pathetic lists I've ever seen
here in Job it speaks of the Pleiades and Orion star clusters. Actually, here the Bible states that these star clusters are gravitationally bound, and the Orion cluster is slowly drifting apart, which has been proven true by modern-day astronomy. Pretty impressive for what you are supposing are some delusional nomad shepherds in the desert.
And
If you're referring to Revelations at the end of the Earth, then why do you assume that this means literal stars in the sky? It was written by a man from Bible days looking into what we now know as current day, or perhaps even further into the future. What looked like stars coming out of the sky to him could be missiles from fighter jets or any bright object coming quickly down to the earth, probably in an explosion.
I'm sorry, but did you keep a straight face when you wrote those two? And you have the audacity to use the word "pathetic" - I think you need to look to yourself
You also seem to think that the Bible could not possibly contradict itself, and use this "fact" to push your arguments further. Why should anyone accept your claim that the Bible does not contradict itself, given the rather plentiful evidence that it does?
I also note that many of your "refutations" involve contradicting the beliefs of our creationist friends here at EvC. I trust you will be taking them to task over their belief, in much the way you have addressed this list?
Oh, and welcome to EvC...
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by General Anubis, posted 02-12-2009 8:12 AM General Anubis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by General Anubis, posted 02-12-2009 3:41 PM cavediver has replied

General Anubis
Junior Member (Idle past 5607 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 02-12-2009


Message 125 of 167 (498647)
02-12-2009 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by cavediver
02-12-2009 3:18 PM


Re: One of the most pathetic lists I've ever seen
There's one major problem with your linking of these two arguments that I made. You're taking both of them out of context for one thing (surprise surprise) and then putting them together to make it look like they contradict. The Pleiades and Orion clusters are actually written out fully-named as such in the Bible, not just referenced as 'stars'. This reference is made in Job, where God himself is speaking and asking Job (and his friends) who else can "bind the chains of Pleiades, or loose the cords of Orion?" This is God trying to inform them of his omnipotence.
The other part, where JOHN (note: different person, different context) is being shown a vision of the future (modern day or perhaps further) and is attempting to describe what he is seeing in words that will be understood by the people of his time. Do you think anyone would have known what he was talking about if he said "And F-22 Raptors launched ICBMs from the sky"? Clearly John HAS to use symbolism in order for people to understand what he's talking about.
I reiterate - A pathetic attempt.
Further into your response, as you state that the Bible clearly contains many contradictions, it is likely that these contradictions of which you speak are of similar nature to the one you just tried to create from my words. Out of context, they seem to contradict. Beyond that, delving into the original Hebrew meaning of the words involved is sometimes necessary to resolve apparent contradictions.
And as a response to your last part there, yes I am fully prepared to argue against any young-earth creationist and global-flood advocate. The evidence from the Bible itself and science corroborates to support old-earth creationism and a local flood.
The important thing to note, however, is that believing the Bible is the inerrant word of God and being born again (and redeemed from your sins) are the only requirements for entering heaven.
So, while a belief in young-earth creationism may be scientifically unsound, the fact remains that they are still Christian. Therefore, the majority of my effort is directed toward countering evolutionist claims in an attempt to pull just one more out of the fire.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by cavediver, posted 02-12-2009 3:18 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by kuresu, posted 02-12-2009 4:22 PM General Anubis has replied
 Message 151 by cavediver, posted 02-12-2009 8:33 PM General Anubis has replied
 Message 155 by dwise1, posted 02-13-2009 1:19 AM General Anubis has replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2563 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 126 of 167 (498648)
02-12-2009 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by General Anubis
02-12-2009 2:34 PM


Re: One of the most pathetic lists I've ever seen
General Anubis writes:
I have to say that the Bible verse mentioned is, in context, God telling man that he (man) is in a dominating position toward all animals. Walking up to an animal and killing it with little/no resistance would seem to support this claim.
But the Black Death doesn't.
Black Death - Wikipedia

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by General Anubis, posted 02-12-2009 2:34 PM General Anubis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by General Anubis, posted 02-12-2009 4:12 PM bluegenes has replied

General Anubis
Junior Member (Idle past 5607 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 02-12-2009


Message 127 of 167 (498653)
02-12-2009 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by bluegenes
02-12-2009 3:47 PM


Re: One of the most pathetic lists I've ever seen
While a bacterium may be a living thing, the Hebrew word here translated as animals probably refers to the 'soulish animals' - Meaning those with a will of their own. The Hebrew use of this word makes this distinction clear in the creation account of Genesis 1.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by bluegenes, posted 02-12-2009 3:47 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by bluegenes, posted 02-12-2009 4:23 PM General Anubis has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2599 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 128 of 167 (498655)
02-12-2009 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by General Anubis
02-12-2009 3:41 PM


Re: One of the most pathetic lists I've ever seen
where God himself is speaking and asking Job (and his friends) who else can "bind the chains of Pleiades, or loose the cords of Orion?" This is God trying to inform them of his omnipotence.
Funny how God is using greek names for constellations in a jewish story.
Do you think anyone would have known what he was talking about if he said "And F-22 Raptors launched ICBMs from the sky"? Clearly John HAS to use symbolism in order for people to understand what he's talking about.
Clue you in. Even we wouldn't understand "And f-22 Raptors launched ICBMs from the sky". Mainly because F-22 Raptors, and all planes, are incapable of carrying intercontinental ballistic missiles. The Minuteman 3, for example, weighs 79,000 lbs and is almost 60 ft long. The Trident is 130,000 lbs and 44 ft long. The Midgetman is 30,000 lbs and 46 ft (and no longer operational). The JDAM, which the F-22 can carry, is 10 ft long and between 500-2000 lbs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by General Anubis, posted 02-12-2009 3:41 PM General Anubis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by General Anubis, posted 02-12-2009 4:38 PM kuresu has replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2563 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 129 of 167 (498656)
02-12-2009 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by General Anubis
02-12-2009 4:12 PM


Re: One of the most pathetic lists I've ever seen
General Anubis writes:
While a bacterium may be a living thing, the Hebrew word here translated as animals probably refers to the 'soulish animals' - Meaning those with a will of their own. The Hebrew use of this word makes this distinction clear in the creation account of Genesis 1.
Considering that most of the world's biomass is composed of bacteria, and considering the essential role that they play in relation to all other life forms (we're dead without them), what does the Bible tell us about them, and where?
As you mention Genesis, and "soulish animals", doesn't Genesis have something interesting to say about whales that might relate to this topic?
Edited by bluegenes, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by General Anubis, posted 02-12-2009 4:12 PM General Anubis has not replied

General Anubis
Junior Member (Idle past 5607 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 02-12-2009


Message 130 of 167 (498659)
02-12-2009 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by kuresu
02-12-2009 4:22 PM


Re: One of the most pathetic lists I've ever seen
I realize F-22's are not capable of carrying ICBMs, I was trying to get my point across. The meaning would've been no different if I had said ballistic missiles in general, not necessarily of the intercontinental variety.
Also - The Bible refers to bacteria in its reference of the forming of "swarming creatures" which is a catchall term in Hebrew for anything that is very tiny and typically comes in large groups, it even includes rats. Yes, whales are considered soulish creatures.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by kuresu, posted 02-12-2009 4:22 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by kuresu, posted 02-12-2009 4:55 PM General Anubis has replied
 Message 134 by bluegenes, posted 02-12-2009 5:13 PM General Anubis has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2599 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 131 of 167 (498660)
02-12-2009 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by General Anubis
02-12-2009 4:38 PM


Re: One of the most pathetic lists I've ever seen
I'm sorry, but ballistic missiles won't cut it either. That's because they follow sub-orbital flight paths, that is, they go really, really high without entering orbit. They just cannot be launched from fighter jets.
The missiles carried by fighter jets and the like are known as air-to-air or air-to-surface missiles, whose designs are really quite different, not to mention their purposes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by General Anubis, posted 02-12-2009 4:38 PM General Anubis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by General Anubis, posted 02-12-2009 4:58 PM kuresu has not replied

General Anubis
Junior Member (Idle past 5607 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 02-12-2009


Message 132 of 167 (498661)
02-12-2009 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by kuresu
02-12-2009 4:55 PM


Re: One of the most pathetic lists I've ever seen
Alright - So we've established my knowledge of modern aircraft weaponry is limited. My point remains that John could not have described the events shown to him without using symbolism, or else everyone would've been completely confused. It is also quite likely that John was quite confused by the events shown to him, and made sense of them the best he could.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by kuresu, posted 02-12-2009 4:55 PM kuresu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Huntard, posted 02-12-2009 5:11 PM General Anubis has replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 133 of 167 (498663)
02-12-2009 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by General Anubis
02-12-2009 4:58 PM


Re: One of the most pathetic lists I've ever seen
IF his prophecy was indeed intended for this day and age, why would it matter that people back then were confused? It would've been clear now, when it matters, not back then, when the events were till millennia away.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by General Anubis, posted 02-12-2009 4:58 PM General Anubis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by General Anubis, posted 02-12-2009 5:16 PM Huntard has replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2563 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 134 of 167 (498664)
02-12-2009 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by General Anubis
02-12-2009 4:38 PM


Re: One of the most pathetic lists I've ever seen
General Anubis writes:
Also - The Bible refers to bacteria in its reference of the forming of "swarming creatures" which is a catchall term in Hebrew for anything that is very tiny and typically comes in large groups, it even includes rats.
A mere glancing reference to something central to life on earth? How strange. I think that would refer to visible swarming creatures, actually. One striking group of animals are the marsupials, with the way they carry their young. Is there a reference to any of these? Also, is there any reference to the animals that are unique to the Americas, Australia and Antartica? Or the plants? And if not, why not?
Yes, whales are considered soulish creatures.
I assumed that. And what do the wise authors of Genesis have to say about when the whales were created? Didn't they come before land mammals?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by General Anubis, posted 02-12-2009 4:38 PM General Anubis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by General Anubis, posted 02-12-2009 5:35 PM bluegenes has replied
 Message 141 by Buzsaw, posted 02-12-2009 6:19 PM bluegenes has replied

General Anubis
Junior Member (Idle past 5607 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 02-12-2009


Message 135 of 167 (498666)
02-12-2009 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Huntard
02-12-2009 5:11 PM


Re: One of the most pathetic lists I've ever seen
Like I said, it is highly likely that John wrote it down to the best of his understanding. He would have understood the images just as the others of his time would have, so he was probably quite confused about what he saw, but wrote down what it looked like to him. Also, the Bible is meant for all, not just one specific time period. While Revelation may pertain to one time period, the message contained is meant to be understood by all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Huntard, posted 02-12-2009 5:11 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Huntard, posted 02-12-2009 5:20 PM General Anubis has replied

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