Exodus, Merneptah stela and israelites

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I remember reading on some other website that the hyksos could be the israelites who were driven away from egypt...

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I agree there should be more references and evidences from Egypt. The Hyksos left no writings, and Israel does back-up their history with authentic, contemporanous accounts, with not a single disputation of it on record. The ancient Egyptians are also infamous for erasing any negative factors from their history. Think of Bagdad Bob!

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We don't have a reliable date for the Exodus.

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Why doubt the world's oldest and most accurate calendar? The OT calendar is in active use today, and its datings are more accurate than anything else, specially circa pre-2000 years ago. I don't think there is any errors in its datings; the modern methods and today's calendar are less accurate for ancient periods.Abdicate - Jewish Calendar, Gergorian Calendar, and Julian ...
This makes the Hebrew calendar the most accurate in the world because it takes into account the lunar and solar cycles. Even NASA and the U.S. Naval ...
Abdicate - Jewish Calendar, Gergorian Calendar, and Julian Calendar Converter360-days Prophetic Calendar is the most accurate of all calendars!
The 360 days prophetic calendar of the bible has striking similarites to other calendars---but it excells them all!
http://www.360calendar.com/...phecy-360-days-calendar-3d.htm - 27k - Cached - Similar pages . ..http://www.360calendar.com/bible-prophecy-360-days-calendar-3d.htm

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But supposing they did record their own defeats why would they hide the israelites account?

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Maybe because Israel represents a failure for the Pharoahs? Are there any egyptian writings about the Hiksos? I see it as, no disputation from any source, equivalent to acquience by silence. The first thing an ascending new pharoah did was to erase the past and anything negative: etchings on pyramids were removed and replaced with the new Pharoah being agrandised.

That is interesting. Any dates or other descriptions involved here - and any admissions of failures?

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sl
Care to back up that statement with the evidence IaJ?

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That the ancient egyptians were known to fib rather than report a negative of themselves? Aside from this being generally quoted and accepted by many scholars, its not easy to prove - there is no scroll of self admission by the pharoahs found yet: PROOF THEY DID IT!!! But seriously - we know that Israel was not destroyed by Egypt in the period stated in the Mernepath stele. And that the stele contains less than true reports is gnerally accepted - here's one such assessment:Merneptah's campaign
Merneptah Stele - Wikipedia
There is disagreement over whether or not Merneptah did actually campaign in Canaan and didn't merely recount what was there, mirroring later Assyrian documents that could never admit that Assyria could lose in battle. This argument holds some weight, as a stela by Merneptah's predecessor Ramesses II about the Battle of Kadesh indicates firm control of the Levant, making it strange that Merneptah had to reconquer it - unless Merneptah had faced a revolt in this region that he felt compelled to crush in order to exert's Egypt's authority over Canaan. In this case, Merneptah's control over Canaan was precarious at best.

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jar
First, stop and think.

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One thing the Egyptian Pharaohs DID do is record their ascendancy. If there was any truth to the Exodus Myth, we should see a NEW Pharaoh ascending to the throne recorded. Unfortunately for the Exodus really happened crowd, that evidence just taint there.

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So far there has NEVER been found any of the needed support that the Exodus ever happened.

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I don't think so. You are trivialising the word 'myth' here. The descriptions in the book of Exodus contains too many authentic, historical details, and too many dates and names - to be classified as myth so strongly. Nor is it true, and without any substance, that this document is one of many others who may be classified as myth: nothing like this document exists anywhere else. In a period where history is difficult to find evidence for, aside from stone etchings, we have numerous archeological evidences of the Israelites embedded in this period and this region, interacting with all the surrounding nations - aside from the book of Exodus, and these are not limited to the one Egyptian stele. Please show us any historical writing with as much backup? Myths don't come with such back-up; nothing does. First, stop and think.Excerpt/Quotes:Merneptah Stele
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, searchThe Merneptah Stele (also known as the Israel Stele or Victory Stele of Merneptah) is the reverse of a large granite stele originally erected by the Ancient Egyptian king Amenhotep III, but later inscribed by Merneptah who ruled Egypt from 1213 to 1203 BC. The black granite stela primarily commemorates a victory in a campaign against the Libu and Meshwesh Libyans and their Sea People allies, but its final two lines refer to a prior military campaign in Canaan in which Merneptah states that he defeated Ashkelon, Gezer, Yanoam and Israel among others.[1] The stele was discovered in the first court of Merneptah's mortuary temple at Thebes by Flinders Petrie in 1896.[2] Petrie remarked "This stele will be better known in the world than anything else I have found" [3]and is now in the collection of the Egyptian Museum at Cairo; a fragmentary copy of the stele was also found at Karnak.[4]
--------------The Merneptah Stela, now in the Cairo Museum, is probably the most analyzed ancient text outside of the Bible.
Undoubtedly, the most important mention of Israel outside the Bible is that in the Merneptah, or “Israel,” Stela. Discovered in 1896 in Merneptah's mortuary temple in Thebes by Flinders Petrie, the stela is a poetic eulogy to pharaoh Merneptah, who ruled Egypt after Rameses the Great, ca. 1212-1202 BC. Of significance to Biblical studies is a short section at the end of the poem describing a campaign to Canaan by Merneptah in the first few years of his reign, ca. 1210 BC. One line mentions Israel: “Israel is laid waste, its seed is not.” Here we have the earliest mention of Israel outside the Bible and the only mention of Israel in Egyptian records.
Since the date of the reference to Israel in the . . ..
Hasel's study of the Merneptah Stela is extremely important. It clears up a number of misconceptions and focuses attention on the true significance of the stela. It indicates that Israel was well established in Canaan in the late 13th century BC and was a significant political force to be reckoned with. Hasel concludes,
Israel functioned as an agriculturally-based/sedentary socioethnic entity in the late 13th century B.C., one that is significant enough to be included in the military campaign against political powers in Canaan. . While the Merneptah stela does not give any indication of the actual social structure of the people of Israel, it does indicate that Israel was a significant socioethnic entity that needed to be reckoned with (1994: 54; 56, n. 12).----------------Bethsaida - Archeology in IsraelThe area of Bethsaida is first known from the Amarna letters, a 14th century BCE correspondence between Egyptian pharaohs and rulers in Palestine under Egyptian administration. From the 10th century BCE Bethsaida was the capital of a small Aramaean kingdom, called Geshur; mentioned in the Bible.The Discovery of the Hittites
Archaeology and the Old Testament
The Hittites played a prominent role in Old Testament history. They interacted with biblical figures as early as Abraham and as late as Solomon. They are mentioned in Genesis 15:20 as people who inhabited the land of Canaan.The discovery of the Hittites has proven to be one of the great archaeological finds of all time. It has helped to confirm the biblical narrative and had a great impact on Middle East archaeological study. Because of it, we have come to a greater understanding of the history of our language, as well as the religious, social, and political practices of the ancient Middle East.Important Egyptian Discoveries Relating to the Bible.IBSS - Biblical Archaeology - Egyptian Hieroglyphics1. Rosetta Stone discovered in 1799. This led to the decipherment of Egyptian hieroglyphics.
2. Merneptah's Stele. First mention of "Israel" in Egyptian texts. Stele dates to about 1210 BC.
3. Amarna Letters (14th century BC). Letters written from Canaanite scribes in Akkadian to king Akhenaten about the conditions in Canaan, especially the troublesome Hapiru which probably refers to the Hebrews.
4. Inscriptions at Karnak. Karnak is the largest temple complex in the world. There also may be the earliest depiction of the Israelites.
5. Mortuary Temple of Rameses III at Medinet Habu. It depicts the battle with the Sea People. One of the five groups of Sea Peoples was the Philistines. There are carvings of what the Philistines looked like.

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I'm sorry but absolutely nothing in your post has anything to do with your earlier stupid assertion that some new Pharaoh erased the recorded inscriptions of Hebrews in Egypt. Nor does it have anything to do with the fact that at the supposed time of the Exodus no new Pharaoh came to the throne in Egypt.

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Obviously, you have to read again, calmy and as you would about retroviruses, and put aside your continueing paranioa. I gave you three examples - a scholar advocating egypt's writings are bloated, and that this occured with other nations with Egypt. There are also evidences that new pharoahs erased inscriptions. However, there is no need to scrutinise this to make black from white: there is no other ancient narratives over 3000 years old of equal status - not in the M/E, India, China or any place else. There were numerous coups and assaults on the pharoah's thrones, and the new king assuming himself divine - it even occurs today in this region.The issue was your bold assertion of 'myth', what is generally well vindicated overall: that Israel and Egypt had a long-standing and intense history, which is not negated by your requirement of ethchings shown crossed out: there is no self-incriminating letters from Mr. Pharoah. Thus I asked you to name another document with equivalent evidences of its narratives. The ball is in your 'show me your evidence' of what all scholars assert, or else you should except that the narratives are not mythical, and what are its subsequences other than the myth jargon.Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

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Can you provide the references from the Old Testament that tells us about a ruling dynasty (only over part of Egypt) being overthrown by a sustained campaign began by Khamose and carried forward by Ahmose, does the Bible even mention them?

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That would be out of context in egypt and israel's history. But there is reference to a 'new king arose in Egypt who knew not the Hebrews' (meaning, became adversarial).

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But, I await your dates from the Book of Exodus, and I think further study on your part of decent quality academic articles, instead of scanning a few fundy websites, would enlighten you as to why no reputable archaeologist takes the events in the Book of Exodus seriously. At best you will have a few amatuers twisting every ounce of plausibility out of circumstantial evidence, but still coming up with nothing concrete.

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Brian.

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The articles were fine - reputable and in parallel with a host of others, but your article may not be. The Israel stele is definitely true to its time - so are the names listed. The world knows of the Hitites, Canaan, the Moabs, Ramases, Pithom and the ancient Egyptian diets and preist names, for example, from the OT - 1000s of years before archeology was invented. Earlier, someone even asked whether the OT calendar was accurate and the oldest - and these links were also supplied: it shows a lack of credibility in knowledge and conclusions made.

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Sticking to the Merneptah stele it confirms that Exodus was written well after the (alleged) events i describes.
As the article you quote states it must have been inscribed well after the Exodus, sicne Israel is well established in Canaan at that time.

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It had to be if it tells of a war which happened.

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Exodus 13:17 tells us:

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Now when Pharaoh had let the people go, God did not lead them by the way of the land of the Philistines, even though it was near; for God said, "The people might change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt."

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Obviously at the time of writing there must have been an identifiable "land of the Philistines" - and the writer seems to believe that there were hostile Philistines there.

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However the Philistines did not settle in the area until the reign of Rameses III - who came after Merneptah. Thus Exodus 13:17 was certainly written many years after the Exodus was supposed to have happened. And it appears that it was written so much later that the writer wrongly thought that the Philistines were there !

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The philistines were around in the time of the Patriachs - some 400 years before Moses. There was an attempt by the tribe of Benjamin to escape egypt, which the other tribes did not agree with, and this tribe were massacred by the Philistines along the coastal route, almost 40,000 of them. This is what is the meaning of the verse: "The people might change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt." The bones of the benjamin tribe would scare the Israelites in Moses' time - the reason another route was taken. The philistines emerged and disappeared from the M/E exactly as depicted in the OT. I doubt whether you have sufficiently contemplated what you are inferring: that a myth was made of a 3000 year period, with fake stats along every 200 year period: your kidding!

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I'd be very interested in any dates that you can provide from the Book of Exodus.

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That's hardly an intelligent question - the OT is pervasive of dates - diarised, calenderised, and calculatable. The date of leaving Egypt was diarised, as they left: 'This month shall be unto you the beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you' (Ex 12/2). This is the passover dates and celebrated every year since then.

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Which has NOTHING to do with your earlier stupid assertion that some new Pharaoh erased the recorded inscriptions of Hebrews in Egypt. Nor does it have anything to do with the fact that at the supposed time of the Exodus no new Pharaoh came to the throne in

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Progress! You did'nt use the 'myth' word this time.

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This isn't really much help, since your original claim was that "Israel does back-up their history with authentic, contemporanous accounts,". So where does the Old testament back-up Hyksos history?

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As for new king arising, this happened a lot in ancient Egypt.

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Brian

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Hyksos don't have to be backed here. It does not just say a new king arose - it qualifies it with 'who knew not Joseph or the Hebrews'.

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Well, I never asked about the OT, I asked about the dates in the Book of Exodus, since, again, you seem to forget your original claim, in this case "The descriptions in the book of Exodus contains too many authentic, historical details, and too many dates and names".

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So, let's try again. What authentic dates does the Book of Exodus contain, we have the first month of the year in Ex. 2:12, any idea what year we would be looking at?

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The date of leaving Egypt was diarised,

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The month was given, whether it was 'diarised' is a different matter.

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Brian.

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The book of exodus is an intergrated part of the OT, and the going out of egypt is diarised, its date, including the day/month/year is calculatable (given), and observed annually as the passover. There is more credence here, for example, than the dates of christmas or the date greece battled persia: it is followed by other dates upto the end of the OT writings, then by follow-up books which also contain dates. Its as good as it gets.

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actually, the whole first part of the book is true... right up to where he meets the norsemen. the rest is beowulf.

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The operative factor is, the fadlen don't posses an egyptian stele backup; a thread of historical books; archeological relics; the dates of the Dan Tel discovery, for example, is confirmed - after many years of calling King David a myth. These factors don't allow the equating of any other document in existence - there is no equivalence to the calibre of evidences at hand anywhere else. The myth factor is dead.