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Author | Topic: Exodus, Merneptah stela and israelites | |||||||||||||||||||||||
IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3695 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: No sir. It could only be written when no kings existed, as a pointer to the other nations and the events in question; and by the fact it is stated by one who was not around when kings of israel appeared in the future. Its like Moses writing about Adam - before any other humans existed; the verses are retrospective to the narrative's and setting's spacetime.
quote: Of coz, only the Mosaic five books define the israelite and hebrew history pre and post ancient egypt. The other writings are post-Mosaic (Torah) descriptions of later events. These are categorised as OT by christianity, which lumps it all together, depending on what it sees as fitting the NT.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3695 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: The name 'JERUSALEM' was coined by Abraham and Melchizedek. One Prefered Yeru, the other argued for Shlayim; finally, both Hebrew words were combined, and Yerushalayim was settled with. The later narratives use this name retrospectively.
quote: David established Jerusalem as the Capital after defeating the Philistines; the name was established by Abraham; Jacob knew about the sacredness of this place and its name, as the point his father Isaac was offered as a sacrice by Abraham.
quote: The distinction of being a vassal state under Rome was not the fulcrum issue here, but that this was the Jewish kingdom in 70CE. There was no such place as Palestine or christianity during Jesus' time - he was not a christian or European. Its historical revisionism, better allocated to a belief system only.
quote: And had you read actual history, you would have known that over 1 million other jews were executed by the Roman holocaust - unpardonably disregarded in the NT. Your use of the term 'rebellion'by the jews is somewhat naive here! How about: WHEN FREEDOM OF BELIEF - BECAME ROME'S GREATEST WAR?
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Brian Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Its like Moses writing about Adam - before any other humans existed; the verses are retrospective to the narrative's and setting's spacetime. This is exactly what we have been saying Joseph. Moses could only write about Adam because he knew adam had lived. Thus the author speaking about before there were kings in Israel could only have written this if he knew there had been a king of Israel. It is exactly the same. The author knew Israel had a few Kings after the Edomites did. The verse makes no sense at all any other way. Brian.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3695 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: The variant, grotesque and antithetical reading of this texts is yours, not mine. This is true by concencus, period of time, and almost every commentary throughout a host of writings by the sages in this spacetime between the OT and the last hebrew books before 70 CE; then again from that point to today. Subtle point?
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Brian Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
David established Jerusalem as the Capital after defeating the Philistines. Any chance of you supporting this statement? hat evidence do you have that this occurred?
There was no such place as Palestine or Christianity during Jesus' time. Sure there wasn't Christianity, but Herodotus wrote about Palestine 500 years before Jesus was born. The name Palestine is derived from the Philistines.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3695 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Correction! Adam is vested in Moses' past; kings in Moses' future. Not quite exactly the same - the retrospective factor only applies with the past; where no time machine was required. Subtle point?
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3695 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
Double post
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3695 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Its an abuse to the premise of proof.
quote: The philistines, a non-semetic peoples, spoke no Hebrew; Jerusalem is a hebrew name. The name Palestine was coined by Rome, as a reference to Israel's ancient enemies (the philistines) conquered by David a 1000 years earlier. There was never a land called Palestine before Rome's destruction of Jerusalem.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Correction! Adam is vested in Moses' past; kings in Moses' future. Exactly, that is why Moses could not have written this verse, unless he had a crystal ball or the time machine you mentioned. So, this verse had to be written after the establishment of the Israelite monarchy. Moses didnt write anything, Moses is a literary invention, its no big deal. Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Its an abuse to the premise of proof. So you have no evidence at all. That's fair enough to be honest since no archaeologist has uncovered any proof of this in over a hundred years of excavation in the holy land.
The name Palestine was coined by Rome, Palestine is just the English rendering of the latin Palaestina taken from the Greek Palaistinei mentioned by Herodotus 500 year before jesus, I thought you would be interested. Brian
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3695 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: The above details, including the names of Cyrus and Darius, are first and better described in the Book of Esther. Cyrus is mentioned as the persian king who sanctioned the return of the jews to Judea and israel, and the rebuilding of the temple. That it is also mentioned in later, greek writings - is a vindication of the OT. This is uneffected by the discrepencies found in Herodotus' motivated writings: Herodotus:Father of History, Father of Lies By David PipesHerodotus - Wikipedia
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I'm sorry but nothing in that corroborates the Old Testament. What that does is help corroborate the existence of Darius and Cyrus, but in no way does it support the existence of Esther or that there were Hebrews in Egypt at the time the alleged Exodus happened or that there was an Exodus or some imagined Conquest of Canaan.
Darius I also lived from 549 to sometime in the late 480s BCE, or more than 1000 years after the Exodus was supposed to have happened and Cyrus the Great was only slightly earlier. Neither Darius I or Cyrus are in an way related to the question of the Exodus and even bringing them up simply shows no understanding of either history or what would be supporting evidence. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3695 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
That's NUTS. There is no description of Babylon 2600 years ago better than that of the book of Esther. Its like reading the Sunday morning papers - the details are unequalled in its historicity, whereby a single passage says more than any other document. Stating so boldly that there is no corraboration is quiet ignorant: babylon invaded Israel and all Jews were exiled here; the Talmud was written here, and a number of revered figures are buried there. Your response is surely not worth catering to - sorry!
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AdminAsgara Administrator (Idle past 2329 days) Posts: 2073 From: The Universe Joined: |
IAJ, if you are NOT going to discuss the Exodus and the Merneptah Stele, Please refrain from posting in this topic. Babylon, Darius, and Cyrus are not on topic.
AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
New Members: to get an understanding of what makes great posts, check out:
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
A few basic facts, mostly for the lurkers who may be reading the thread.
The topic is: "Exodus, Merneptah stela and israelites". The goal is to see if there is any evidence that might support the Exodus actually happening. That actual people who lived 1000 years after the supposed Exodus are mentioned in the Bible can be considered evidence when combined with other sources that those two people existed. It is NOT in anyway though support that the Exodus happened. Ivanhoe mentioned King Richard. There is additional evidence that King Richard actually lived, but the novel is fiction. The problem with your evidence is that the fact that actual people are mentioned is not evidence that the story is true, that the people you mention lived 1000 years after the supposed Exodus, and that it is in no way evidence in support of the actuality of the Exodus fiction. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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