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Author Topic:   Bible Question: What was the First Sin?
Lysimachus
Member (Idle past 5213 days)
Posts: 380
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 286 of 312 (433195)
11-10-2007 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by crashfrog
11-10-2007 2:32 PM


Crashfrog, if the bible gave you any more detail, you still would not believe. And if you did "believe", it would simply be purely out of fear, not genuine love for your Messiah.
The Bible has JUST enough evidence designed by God to determine the wheat from the tares. Any truly honest person will be able to discern truth, and what is right.
If the Bible outlined everything on a silver platter, the whole world would be filled with unrepentant worship.
It's only a matter of time before you will be forced to believe, Crashfrog. The world is going to pots, and all the terrible things that are happening in this world, such as with disasters and wars, is only a small taste of what is to come. It's all leading up to one giant showdown with Armageddon.
Unfortunately, then, believing won't do you any good.
I guess you'll just wait and see.
A good sign for you to look forward to: When the Pope starts calling upon Protestants around the world to start enforcing the observance of the Pagan Sunday Worship, and the increasing disasters will cause people and protestant leaders to demand congress to establish a "National Day of Worship", and when disasters of all kinds start to only increase after that around the world, and Satan himself impersonates Christ (as possibly the 8th Pope since 1798) and starts performing miracles and calling fire down from heaven before the eyes of the masses, then you will remember these conversations, and oh, how you will wish you had listened.
Edited by Lysimachus, : No reason given.
Edited by Lysimachus, : No reason given.
Edited by Lysimachus, : No reason given.
Edited by Lysimachus, : No reason given.

~Lysimachus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by crashfrog, posted 11-10-2007 2:32 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by crashfrog, posted 11-10-2007 3:20 PM Lysimachus has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 287 of 312 (433198)
11-10-2007 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Lysimachus
11-10-2007 3:01 PM


Crashfrog, if the bible gave you any more detail, you still would not believe.
Believe what?
It's only a matter of time before you will be forced to believe, Crashfrog.
Thank you for revealing the Christianist agenda so openly. By all means, try and bully me into believing your nonsense mythology.
It's all leading up to one giant showdown with Armageddon.
Lol! I wonder - does the vast array of faulty predictions of "imminent" Armageddon handed down through the years faze you in the slightest? The odds are astronomical that there will be any outcome other than doomsayers like you looking completely foolish as the dates of your supposed "end of the world" come and go, and go, and go, and go, like they always do. You think you're Noah, crying "flood", when really you're the boy, crying "wolf."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Lysimachus, posted 11-10-2007 3:01 PM Lysimachus has not replied

imageinvisible
Member (Idle past 5940 days)
Posts: 132
From: Arlington, Texas, US
Joined: 12-03-2007


Message 288 of 312 (438789)
12-06-2007 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
08-27-2003 12:57 PM


Did God really say....
The first sin is clearly stated in Genesis chapter 3:1-4. The first sin was questioning weather or not God really said that they would surely die if the ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Ergo the first sin was the question "Did God really say..."
Yes; He really said.....and He ment it.
Edited by imageinvisible, : spelling

And God demonstrates the infallable nature of His Word in Lev 11:20,23 where by He says "Though shalt not eat the praying mantids" Why? Cause they're praying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 08-27-2003 12:57 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Brian, posted 12-06-2007 12:06 PM imageinvisible has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 289 of 312 (438838)
12-06-2007 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by imageinvisible
12-06-2007 9:51 AM


Re: Did God really say....
Yes; He really said.....and He ment it.
so, the first sin would be God lying about them dying, since they did not die.
Thanks for clearing that up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by imageinvisible, posted 12-06-2007 9:51 AM imageinvisible has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by imageinvisible, posted 12-09-2007 10:10 PM Brian has replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4212 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 290 of 312 (438884)
12-06-2007 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by crashfrog
11-10-2007 2:32 PM


The expectations I would have for the Bible depend on what you expect me to believe the Bible is.
As a written record of traditional Hebrew oral myths? No, I wouldn't expect the Bible to go into every detail, nor provide any more information than is necessary for the reader to get the general gist of the myth.
As God's inerrant Word to His creation, detailing every way in which a person should live? I would expect significantly more detail, and at the same time, less outright self-contradiction.
Like I said it all depends on what you think the Bible is. It's certainly what we would expect if it's just (heh; "just") a long-surviving record of the myths of an interesting culture. It doesn't even begin to rise to the level of a supernatural dictation from the Creator of All. Don't discredit your intelligence and try to assert that you or anybody couldn't write, on their own, a more insightful and self-consistent bible.
I agree wholeheartedly

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by crashfrog, posted 11-10-2007 2:32 PM crashfrog has not replied

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 291 of 312 (438914)
12-06-2007 3:22 PM


Summation Time
Only 9 posts left until End of Thread.
It is a good time to start winding down and presenting summaries, conclusions, or final comments.
Thanks for debating, carry on.
Magic Wand

imageinvisible
Member (Idle past 5940 days)
Posts: 132
From: Arlington, Texas, US
Joined: 12-03-2007


Message 292 of 312 (439707)
12-09-2007 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Brian
12-06-2007 12:06 PM


Re: Did God really say....
Adam and Eve didn't die? Where are they I have some questions for Adam.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Brian, posted 12-06-2007 12:06 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Brian, posted 12-10-2007 6:29 AM imageinvisible has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 293 of 312 (439729)
12-10-2007 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by imageinvisible
12-09-2007 10:10 PM


Re: Did God really say....
Adam and Eve didn't die?
They didn't die when God said they would.
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Do you think that Adam and Eve were immortal when they were created?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by imageinvisible, posted 12-09-2007 10:10 PM imageinvisible has replied

Replies to this message:
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imageinvisible
Member (Idle past 5940 days)
Posts: 132
From: Arlington, Texas, US
Joined: 12-03-2007


Message 294 of 312 (439792)
12-10-2007 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Brian
12-10-2007 6:29 AM


Re: Did God really say....
Do you think that Adam and Eve were immortal when they were created?
Frankly, yes. That is the way that God created them, perfect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Brian, posted 12-10-2007 6:29 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by jar, posted 12-10-2007 1:31 PM imageinvisible has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 295 of 312 (439796)
12-10-2007 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by imageinvisible
12-10-2007 12:55 PM


Why do you insist on making God look stupid?
Do you think that Adam and Eve were immortal when they were created?
Frankly, yes. That is the way that God created them, perfect.
First, there is nothing in the story that says God created them perfect and second, that makes God either a fool and a liar. If they were immortal then God was a fool for creating the Tree of Life and for fearing that they would later eat from it and become immortal.
If you continue to portray God as a fool and a liar, how do you expect to attract anyone to the faith?

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by imageinvisible, posted 12-10-2007 12:55 PM imageinvisible has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by imageinvisible, posted 12-10-2007 3:11 PM jar has replied

imageinvisible
Member (Idle past 5940 days)
Posts: 132
From: Arlington, Texas, US
Joined: 12-03-2007


Message 296 of 312 (439809)
12-10-2007 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by jar
12-10-2007 1:31 PM


Re: Why do you insist on making God look stupid?
God removed the tree of life from the garden only after Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and did die. (there are two kinds of death spoken of in the Bible. spiritual death which is the sepration of man from God caused by sin, and physical death which is the price that must be paid for sin.) God was right to remove the tree of life from the garden, for if they (adam and eve) had eaten of the fruit of the tree of life "after" eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would (like it explains in the scriptures) have become like God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by jar, posted 12-10-2007 1:31 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by jar, posted 12-10-2007 3:20 PM imageinvisible has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 297 of 312 (439814)
12-10-2007 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by imageinvisible
12-10-2007 3:11 PM


Re: Why do you insist on making God look stupid?
God removed the tree of life from the garden only after Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and did die. (there are two kinds of death spoken of in the Bible. spiritual death which is the sepration of man from God caused by sin, and physical death which is the price that must be paid for sin.)
Sorry but please show the Chapter and Verses in Genesis that support that.
God was right to remove the tree of life from the garden, for if they (adam and eve) had eaten of the fruit of the tree of life "after" eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would (like it explains in the scriptures) have become like God.
Excuse me? God did NOT remove the Tree of Life from the Garden, he expelled A&E because he feared they would eat from it. If they had been immortal then they did not need to eat from the tree.
In addition, God also says they already had become like Him, read Genesis 3:
Genesis 3:22 writes:
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
Why do you continue to make God look stupid and a liar?
Do any of you Biblical Christians actually read the Bible?

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by imageinvisible, posted 12-10-2007 3:11 PM imageinvisible has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by imageinvisible, posted 12-10-2007 10:12 PM jar has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 298 of 312 (439854)
12-10-2007 4:59 PM


Conclusion
The first sin in the Bible occurs where ever the first question mark occurs.
This means the Serpent committed the first sin in the Bible even though it was possessed by Satan.
Ray

imageinvisible
Member (Idle past 5940 days)
Posts: 132
From: Arlington, Texas, US
Joined: 12-03-2007


Message 299 of 312 (439928)
12-10-2007 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by jar
12-10-2007 3:20 PM


Re: Why do you insist on making God look stupid?
21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
quote:
God did NOT remove the Tree of Life from the Garden, he expelled A&E because he feared they would eat from it.
If you caught that then how did you miss this?
"The man "has now become" (indicating that he "was not before") like one of us, "knowing" (having knowledge of) "good and evil."
Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
The entire theme of the Bible is that sin seperates us from God. One of the best illustations of this is the story of Samson and Delilah. When Samson sinned against God, God left him and Samson's great strength went with Him.
There is another example in Exodus, when God causes His people to wander in the wilderness because they 'grumbled' against Him.
Further more it is the common theme of the Bible that sin must be paid for by living sacrafice. Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh in in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the alter to make atonement for the soul, for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."
But if it is scritures in Genesis that you seek I can preach the Gospel of Christ using just chapter 3. With some referances to chapter 2.
At the end of chapter 2 the Bible says that man and woman where naked and without shame. Chapter 3:1 enter the deciever who seeks to tempt man. We are not told here why he seeks to tempt man only that he does and that he succeeds. Verse 7 illustrates that once they ate of the fruit their eyes where opend and they saw (knew) that they where naked (and became ashamed) therefore they made clothing from fig leaves to cover their nakedness. Verse 8 says that when they heard [YHWH] the LORD coming they hid themselves. They knew that they had disobayed God and His very presence made them want to hide from His sight. (seperate themselves from Him) God already knew the answer to the question before He asked it, He asked it because the first step to redemption is confession by mouth. (and more importantly so others could read and know) "God, we disobayed your comand and ate the fruit which you told us not to eat."
Now look at what God does.
First He curses the serpent for tempting man. (verse 14) Why does He curse the serpent first? Because the serpent tempted man into disobaying God. God then says what will happen to the serpent because he has done this, when He makes a prophacy in verse 15. One will come, born of a woman Who will crush you though you bruise Him.
Then God tells the woman in verse 16 that she will now labor in pain and seek to please her husband. She ahd a choice. She could have said no, God said not to eat this friut but instead she said yes, gaining wisdom is desireable.
Then from verses 17-19 God speeks to the man and tells him that because he disobayed that he has cursed all the earth. And most important, "For dust you are and to dust you shall return." man also had a choice, he could have said no, God said not to eat it. But instead he said yes, and took and ate of the fruit which eve offered him.
Prior to verse 7 man was without shame, after verse 7 man became shameful and sought to seperate himself from God. This is the seperation from the Creator of all life, the Source of all life, to be seperated from that is death, as the end of an event or condition. There was no physical change in adam and eve, the change was spiritual and it happened (like God said it would) as soon as they ate the fruit. And once this spiritual change took place it could not be reversed. Gen. 2:7 gives man a living soul, not just a living body. It is this change in the soul that God refered to.
Then in verse 19 God says, "because you have done this, you shall toil all the days of your life (God is setting a limit on the life of man, numbering his days) untill you (return to dust) die, the end of life as a biological organism.
Then in verse 20 Adam finally names the woman, [Chava; life] Eve, mother of all living. He's saying that the decent of man can be traced back to one woman, one mother, that all who live are her offspring. He's also being quit positive here dispite having just been cursed by God to die for his transgression.
verse 21. The word Ohr; "garment of skin" There are a few interpritations of this sentance. One is that God mearly created some skins and fassioned garments for them out of it. Another is that Ohr is a homonym of the hebrew word for light, this intepretation says that God clothed them in light. And the last is that God slew, or sheed the blood of, an animal and from it made garments for adam and eve. (both of these last two interpritations preimanate from the promise of God in verse 15, that One would come Who would be a light to the people and Who would silence the deciever forever)
verse 22 Because Adam and Eve died, went from being shamless beings to shamful beings, God seperated them from the tree of life. Because if they had eaten of the friut of the tree of life they would have become exactly [equal to] like God. Having both knowledge of good and evil and (by eating the fruit of the tree of life thereby negating Gods curse) being imortal and eternal.
I can gauranty that few if any of you will see what I have just said here. There is a reason we (christians) call it (the Bible) the living Word. The Bible is a Masterpiece of liturary art. You cannot take a chapter or two out of one of the books of the Bible and from it alone glean what the author is really saying. The Bible must be read as a whole, and from that whole scripture that is written in one part of the Bible is used to illustrate, translate, and or interprite what is being said in another. For instance...
Romans [5:12,13] 12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned” 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
Scripture interprets scripture. Furthermore there is a great deal of oral history that is passed down by believers, this goes for Jews, Christians, and almost any other religion. Most, if not all, of this oral history is gleaned from various parts (and other scriptures) of the Bible.
More referances on sin. (Ez. 18:1-32 ; Dt. 24:16 ; 2 K. 14:6 ; 2 Chr. 25:4 ; Ps. 32:1 ; Rom. 4:7 ; Ps. 51:3,4 ; Ps. 109:7 ; Pro. 10:12 ; Is. 30:1 ; Is. 38:17 ; Mic. 7:19 ; Mk. 4:12 ; Jn. 1:29 ; Jn. 9:24 ; Jn. 15:22-24 ; Rom. 3:9 ; Rom. 5:12 ; Rom. 7:13 ; Rom. 14:23 1 Cor. 15:17 ; 2 Cor. 5:21 ; Gal. 2:17 ; 2 Thes. 2:3 ; Heb. 9:28 ; Heb. 12:1 ; James 1:15 ; 1 Pet. 2:22 ; 1 Jn. 3:5 ; Nu. 5:6 ; 1 S. 2:17 ; 1 K. 17:18 ; Jn. 16:9 ; Ro. 6:17 ; Heb. 11:25 ; 1 Pet. 4:1 ; 1 Jn. 2.2 ; Ex. 9:27 ; Ex. 10:16 ; Nu. 16:22 ; 2 S. 12:13 ; 2 S. 24:10,17 ; 1 Chr. 21:8,17 ; 1 K. 8:46 ; 2 Chr. 6:36 ; Ecc. 7:20 ; Job 1:22 ; Lk. 15:18-24 ; Jn. 5:14 ; Jn. 8:11 ; Jn. 9:2 ; Rom. 6:15 ; 1 Jn. 3:6 ; 1 Jn. 5:16 ; Dt 9:16 ; 1 S. 2:25 ; Ps. 119:11 ; 1 Jn. 5:18) I'm fairly certqain I missed a few.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by jar, posted 12-10-2007 3:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by jar, posted 12-10-2007 10:28 PM imageinvisible has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 300 of 312 (439938)
12-10-2007 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by imageinvisible
12-10-2007 10:12 PM


Re: Why do you insist on making God look stupid?
Scripture interprets scripture.
I'm sorry but that is absolute nonsense. We are talking about Genesis 3. Nothing after Genesis 3 changes what is in Genesis 3.
If you caught that then how did you miss this?
I didn't miss that, in fact I pointed out that that comes BEFORE God talking about his fear that they would eat from the Tree of Life.
There is NOTHING in Genesis 3 that shows any separation from God, as you even quote. God hung around and made clothes for them.
In context, Genesis 3 says:
Genesis 3 writes:
21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
and folk can read the whole story here.
Man becomes like God. God then fears they will eat from the Tree of Life and so chases them out of the Garden and even places a guard to make sure no one sneaks back in.
There is Nothing that shows there were two kinds of death, NOTHING to show that Adam or Eve were created perfect, NOTHING to show that they were immortal, and NOTHING to suggest that it was eating from the Tree of Life that would make man like God, but instead specific wording that says eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil made them like God.

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by imageinvisible, posted 12-10-2007 10:12 PM imageinvisible has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by imageinvisible, posted 12-10-2007 10:46 PM jar has replied

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