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Author Topic:   How do we know when the Gospels were written?
Equinox
Member (Idle past 3314 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 106 of 123 (373965)
01-03-2007 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by pop
01-03-2007 1:17 AM


Re: corruption in the bible
Hey Nasr, you gave me a good list, I'll return the favor.

You showed how the verses (individual passages) are changed from Bible to Bible. I'll raise that one level higher to show that the books in the Bible aren't infallible. There has been a huge amount of disagreement over which books go in, and which don't. Most of that is before Nicea, of course, but some exists today, as seen by the different Bibles between the Catholics and Protestants.

List of different books excluded/included in "the" Bible:

Tobit (accepted by Catholics, but not Protestants)
Judith (accepted by Catholics, but not Protestants)
Wisdom of Solomon (in Muratorian Canon, accepted by Catholics, but not Protestants)
Ecclesiasticus (accepted by Catholics, but not Protestants)
Baruch (accepted by Catholics, but not Protestants)
1 Maccabees (accepted by Catholics, but not Protestants)
2 Maccabees (accepted by Catholics, but not Protestants)
1 Enoch (accepted by Tertullian)
*Philemon (not accepted by Irenaeus)
*Hebrews (not accepted by Muratorian Canon, nor Irenaeus)
*James (not accepted by Muratorian Canon, nor Irenaeus, opposed by Luther)
*1 Peter (not accepted by Muratorian Canon)
*2 Peter (see above)
*2 John (not accepted by Irenaeus)
*3 John (not accepted by Irenaeus)
*Jude (not accepted by Irenaeus)
Shepard of Hermas (accepted by Clement of Alexandria, plus it's in our oldest Bibles - Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus)
*Revelation (Eusebius expressed doubt, nearly excluded from Bible at Nicea)
Apocalypse of Peter (accepted by Muratorian Canon)
Epistle of Barnabas (accepted by Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, plus it's in our oldest Bibles - Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus)
Gospel according to the Hebrews (accepted by Clement of Alexandria)
Gospel according to the Egyptians (accepted by Clement of Alexandria)

Enjoy-

Equinox

Edited by Equinox, : Added * to books in KJV, for those who don't know them by name.

Edited by Equinox, : No reason given.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 107 of 123 (373977)
01-03-2007 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Equinox
01-03-2007 10:38 AM


Re: corruption in the bible
And don't forget the Samaritan Canon. It throws out everything past the first five books.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Equinox, posted 01-03-2007 10:38 AM Equinox has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1770 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 108 of 123 (373988)
01-03-2007 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by jar
01-03-2007 11:27 AM


Redaction is fun
jar:

And don't forget the Samaritan Canon. It throws out everything past the first five books.

That strikes me as a good idea.

I'd want to save 1 Corinthians 13, though, if I could.

If someone gave me a job as a redactor of Christian texts, the Samaritan Canon is where I'd start. I'd revise John to keep the sublimity while excising the ax-grinding bits. In most cases this could done without disturbing the narratives. You simply bring in the wording that appears in the other Gospels. So instead of 'the Jews' opposing Jesus (who was a Jew, too, after all) you use Mark's 'scribes and teachers of the law.' Less toxic, more accurate, and few people would even notice.

1 Corinthians 13 could stand on its own but I'd be tempted to graft it into John's Last Supper scene. The conversation there is about love anyway. It could serve as a peroration for the whole scene. The seams on the graft would still show (don't they always?) but it would make sense.

Leaving out the epistles gives you room to put more books into the Christian canon when the Council of Nicea II is held. We're overdue for one. I have some suggestions for material to add... but that's probably material for a new thread.

___


Archer

All species are transitional.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 109 of 123 (373995)
01-03-2007 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Archer Opteryx
01-03-2007 12:02 PM


Re: Redaction is fun
Leaving out the epistles gives you room to put more books into the Christian canon when the Council of Nicea II is held. We're overdue for one. I have some suggestions for material to add... but that's probably material for a new thread.

One could only hope that they would include Mark Twain's Mysterious Stranger, Lewis Carroll's Alice Through the Looking Glass, Kipling's Kim, CS Lewis' The Last Battle as well as the Epistles of Abraham Lincoln.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5393
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 110 of 123 (373996)
01-03-2007 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Equinox
01-03-2007 10:38 AM


Re: corruption in the bible
Judith (accepted by Catholics, but not Protestants)

And needs to be made into a movie - the first Chick/Slasher Flick.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Equinox, posted 01-03-2007 10:38 AM Equinox has not yet responded

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Equinox
Member (Idle past 3314 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 111 of 123 (374006)
01-03-2007 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Archer Opteryx
01-03-2007 12:02 PM


Re: Redaction is fun
Archer wrote:
quote:

I'd be tempted to graft it into John's Last Supper scene.

Just for clarity, you mean the last meal before he was arrested, not "the passover meal where he does the Eucharist stuff like 'this bread is my body'", since no such scene exists in John. John doesn't have a Eucharist, and the meal is not the passover, since in John Jesus is killed before the passover, while in the synoptics, Jesus is killed after the passover.

quote:
The seams on the graft would still show (don't they always?)

Not to those who are not looking, or those who are actively ignoring them, which covers most Christians in the world (though of course not all).

have a fun day-

-Jon


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-03-2007 12:02 PM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

  
pop 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 112 of 123 (374063)
01-03-2007 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Equinox
01-03-2007 10:38 AM


Re: corruption in the bible
Hi Equi .Isnt it intresting bringing up all the corruptions and contradications in the bible?

Further small sampling of contradictions in the Bible:
2) Matthew and Mark claim that a random woman brought the ointment. Luke says that it was a sinful woman. John says that it was Mary, Lazarus' sister.
3) Matthew and Mark say that the woman anointed Jesus' head. Luke and John both say that she anointed his feet.
4) Mark claims that some were indignant. Matthew claims that the disciples were indignant. Luke claims that the Pharisee alone was indignant. John claims that Judas Iscariot alone was indignant.
35 Romans 5:12 Adam alone was responsible for the "original sin." 1 Timothy 2:14 Eve alone, and not Adam, was responsible for the "original sin"
36 Matthew 28:7, 10, 16:20, Mark 16:7. Jesus appeared in Galilee. But Acts 1:4 commands them not to leave Jerusalem Luke 24:13-52, Acts 1:1-12. Jesus appeared in Jerusalem.
37 Matthew 2 ("Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Mary and Joseph took him to Egypt till Harod died. Then they went to Nazareth"). Luke 2 ("Jesus was born in Bethlehem. After Mary delivered Jesus "And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem." After the sacrifice "they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth." His parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the Passover. When he was twelve years old, he stayed behind for three days without the knowledge of his mother.
38 Mark 11 (Jesus, spoke with the elders of the Jews on the third day after his arrival in Jerusalem) Matthew 21 (Jesus, spoke with the elders of the Jews on the second day after his arrival)
39 Matthew 8 (Jesus healed a leper, then the servant of the centurion, then healed the mother of Simon's wife) Mark 4,5,7 (healed the mother of Simon's wife, then a the leper, then the servant of the centurion)
40 Matthew 20:30-34 (Jesus healed two blind men after leaving Jericho) Mark 10:46-52 (Jesus healed one blind man called Bartimaeus after leaving Jericho)
41 Matthew 9:18 (the ruler came and said "My daughter is even now dead") Mark 5:22-23 (the ruler said his daughter is near death. After they came near his house, someone came out and told him that his daughter had died while he was away)
42 Matthew 8:28 (When Jesus came into the country of the Gergesenes, he met two men possessed with devils coming out of the tombs) Mark 5:2 and Luke 8:27 (When Jesus came into the country of the Gadarenes., he met one man possessed with devils coming out of the tombs)
43 Matthew 21:2 ("Jesus sent two disciples "Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me"). Mark 11:2 (Jesus said: "...ye shall find a colt tied,...; loose him, and bring him").
Luke 19:30 (Jesus said "....ye shall find a colt tied, ...: loose him, and bring him hither").
John 12:14-15 ("And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt")
Did Jesus send anyone? What, and how many did they bring? Or did he find it/them alone?
44 Mark 1, Matthew 4, John 1 (Two different narrations of the conversion of the disciples) Mark/Matthew As he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew. They followed him. And when he had gone a little farther, he saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, and they followed him too. All of them were mending their nets when they met Jesus.
John: On the banks of the Jordan, John the Baptist pointed out Jesus to two of his disciples, and they followed Jesus. One of the two which heard John speak, and followed Jesus, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. Andrew found his brother Simon, and brought him to Jesus. Jesus named him Cephas. The next day Jesus went into Galilee, and found Philip. Philip then found Nathanael. At no time was anyone mending nets.
45 Matthew 3:13-16 (Jesus came to John the Baptist to be baptized by him. John recognized Jesus and forbade him, saying, "I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?" He then baptized Jesus. Once Jesus was baptized, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him)........John recognized Jesus before the dove descended. John 1:32-34 ("And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God".........Only after the dove descended did John recognize Jesus.
Also: in Matthew 11:2-3 "Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?" The first passage states that John knew Jesus before the dove descended. The second claims that he didn't until it descended. The third takes a middle ground)
46 Mark 7:32-35 (After departing from the coasts of Tyre and Sidon, Jesus came unto the sea of Galilee. One man that was deaf, and had an impediment in his speech was brought before Jesus. Jesus healed him). Matthew 15:29-31 (Jesus departed and came to the sea of Galilee. "And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them: Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel").
47 John 13:21-27 ("Verily, verily, I (Jesus) say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake. Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly") Matthew 26:21-25 ("he (Jesus) said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I? And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me. The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said").
48 Matthew 27:38-44, Mark 15:32 (Both thieves mocked Jesus). Luke 23:39-43 (One of the thieves mocked Jesus while the other rebuked him and asked Jesus to remember him in heaven, Jesus promised him that he would be with him in heaven)
49 Acts 1:18 (Judas purchased a field with the pieces of silver). Matthew 27:6-7 (The chief priests purchased a field with the pieces of silver)
50 Matthew 4:5-8 (The devil took Jesus to the pinnacle of the temple, then to a high mountain.) Luke 4:5-7 (The devil took Jesus up into a high mountain, then to the pinnacle of the temple)
51 John 2:18-19 ("Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.") Matthew 26:60-61 ("At the last came two false witnesses, and said, This fellow (Jesus) said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.." How can they be false witnesses if Jesus did actually say it?)
52 Matthew 15:22 (The woman who cried for her daughter was from Canaan) Mark 7 (The woman who cried for her daughter was a Greek and a Syrophenician by tribe)
53 Matthew 26:48-50 (Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast. And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him. And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him) John 18-3-12 (Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons. Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way: That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none. Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him)
54 Romans 3:28 ("Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.") James 2:14,20 ("What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? .......But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?")
55 Romans 4:2, Romans 5:12, Romans 5:14, 1Corintians 15:20 (Paul speaks and claims that all mankind inherited the sin of their father Adam) Ezekiel 18:20, Deuteronomy 24:16, Jeremiah 31:29-30, Ezekiel 18:1-9 (God speaks and emphatically declares that no human will be held accountable for their father's sin. No human can inherit sin)
56 Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
(Does God repent or not?)
57 2 Samuel 8:4 (7 hundred horsemen) 1 Chronicles 18:4 (7 thousand horsemen)
58 1 Chronicles 21:12 (Three years famine) 2 Samuel 24:13 (Seven years famine)
59 Deuteronomy 2:19 & Deuteronomy 2:37 (Moses deprived land of Ammon) Joshua 13:24-25 (Moses gives land of Ammon as inheritance)
60 2 Samuel 24:9 (800,000+500,000) 1 Chronicles 21:5 (1,100,000+470,000)
61 2 Chronicles 36:9 (Eight years, three months +10 days) 2 Kings 24:8 (Eighteen years, three months)
62 2 Samuel 10:18 (700, 40,000 horsemen) 1 Chronicles 19:18 (7000, 40,000 footmen)
63 1 Kings 7:26 (two thousand baths) 2 Chronicles 4:5 (Three thousand baths)
64 2 Samuel 6:23 (Michal had no children) 2 Samuel 21:8 (Michal had five sons)
65 Genesis6:3 (mankind shall not live past 120 years) Genesis 11:10-32 (500,438,433,464,...etc.)
66 2 Chronicles 9:25 (4,000 stalls) 1 Kings 4:26 (40,000 stalls)
67 Isaiah 40:28 (God does not faint nor weary) Exodus 31:17 (God rested, and was refreshed.)
68 Genesis 1: (God creates Plants, then animals, then man and woman.) Genesis 2: (God creates man, then plants, then animals, then woman)
69 Ezekiel 45 and 46 (Doctrines of offerings and sacrifices) Numbers 28 and 29 (Contradictory doctrines of offerings and sacrifices)
70 1 Chronicles 8:29-38 (One list of names) 1 Chronicles 9:35-44 (A contradictory list of names)
71 2 Samuel 5 and 2 Samuel 6 (David brought the ark after fighting the Philistines) 1 Samuel 13 and 1 Samuel 14 (David brought the ark Before fighting the Philistines)
72 Genesis 6:19-20 (Noah was to bring onto the ark "of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive ....male and female....of fowls....of cattle....of every creeping thing of the earth..."). Genesis 7:2-3 (Noah was to bring onto the ark "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female...").
73 2 Samuel 8:1 ("David took Methegammah out of the hand of the Philistines"). 1 Chronicles 18:1 ("David...took Gath and her towns out of the hand of the Philistines").
74 2 Samuel 8:8 ("And from Betah, and from Berothai, cities of Hadadezer, king David took exceeding much brass"). 1 Chronicles 18:8 ("Likewise from Tibhath, and from Chun, cities of Hadarezer, brought David very much brass").
75 2 Samuel 8:10 ("Then Toi sent Joram his son unto king David") 1 Chronicles 18:10 ("He sent Hadoram his son to king David")
76 2 Samuel 8:12 ("Of Syria, and of Moab, and of the children of Ammon, and of the Philistines, and of Amalek"). 1 Chronicles 18:11 ("from Edom, and from Moab, and from the children of Ammon, and from the Philistines, and from Amalek.
77 2 Samuel 8:13 ("And David gat him a name when he returned from smiting of the Syrians in the valley of salt, being eighteen thousand men"). 1 Chronicles 18:13 ("And he put garrisons in Edom; and all the Edomites became David's servants").
78 2 Samuel 8:17 ("and Seraiah was the scribe") 1 Chronicles 18:16 ("and Shavsha was scribe")
79 1 Kings 15:33-16:6 ("In the third year of Asa king of Judah began Baasha the son Ahijah to reign over all Israel in Tirzah, twenty four years..... So Baasha slept with his fathers, and was buried in Tirzah"). 3+24=27. 2 Chronicles 16:1 ("In the thirty sixth year of the reign of Asa, Baasha king of Israel came up against Judah"). But he died in the twenty seventh year! Was he resurrected? So how did he invade Judah 10 years after his death?
80 Genesis 7:1 Noah was righteous
Job 1:1, Job 1:8, Job 2:3, Job was righteous.
Luke 1:6 Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous
Genesis 17:1 Abraham was righteous
Ames 5:16 Some men are righteous, (which makes their prayers effective). Romans 3:10 no one is righteous, not one
1John 1:8-10 No one was or is righteous.
81 Genesis 11:12 Arpachshad (Arphaxad) was the father of Salah (Sala) Luke 3:35-36 Cainan was the father of Shelah. Arpachshad (Arphaxad) was the grandfather of Salah (Sala).
82 Matthew 19:26 with God all things are possible.
Mark 10:27 with God all things are possible. Judges 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drove out [the inhabitants of] the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
(If I sit in my "iron" train or submarine, will God be powerless against me?)
83 Exodus 20:14 God prohibits adultery. This is one of the ten commandments Hosea 1:2 God commands Hosea to "take a wife of harlotry."
84 Numbers 33:38-42 Aaron died on Mount Hor. After Aaron's death, the Israelites journeyed from mount Hor, to Zalmonah, to Punon, ... etc. Deuteronomy 10:6-7 Aaron died in Mosera. After Aaron's death, the Israelites journeyed from Mosera, to Gudgodah to Jotbath.
85 Judges 4:21 Sisera was sleeping when Jael, Heber's wife, killed him with a nail to the forehead. Judges 5:24-27 Sisera was standing when Jael, Heber's wife, killed him with a nail to the forehead. Then he fell to her feet.
86 JS 10:38-40 Joshua himself captured Debir. JG 1:11-15 It was Othniel, who captured Debir thereby obtaining the hand of Caleb's daughter, Achsah.
87 2 Samuel 24:24 David paid 50 shekels of silver 1 Chronicles 21:22-25 David paid 600 shekels of gold
88 1 Kings 5:16 Solomon's officers 3300 in number. 2 Chronicles 2:2 Solomon's officers 3600 in number
89 1Kings 7:15: 18 cubits high. 2 Chronicles 3:15-17: 35 cubits high.
90 Numbers 25:9 (24000) 1 Corinthians 10:8 (23000)
91 Ezra 2:6 (2812) Nehemiah 7:11 (2818)
92 Ezra 2:8 (945) Nehemiah 7:13 (845)
93 Ezra 2:12 (1222) Nehemiah 7:17 (2322)
94 Ezra 2:15 (454) Nehemiah 7:20 (655)
95 Ezra 2:19 (223) Nehemiah 7:22 (328)
96 Ezra 2:28 (223) Nehemiah 7:32 (123)
The list goes on and on, however, hopefully this sampling shall prove sufficient so that the reader might see what has driven countless Christian scholars to recognize the evidence of tampering. God does not inspire contradictions. Some among mankind have been tampering with the words of the Bible and then passing them off to mankind as part of the "faultless words of God." Centuries of "correction" to the Bible in order to promote chosen doctrines has led to side-effects (Remember: some Christian scholars acknowledge that the "errors" actually number from 14,800-50,000 errors).
Any reputable scholar of the Bible will never attempt to claim to be able to convince the majority of the scholars of the Bible that all of these 50,000 errors are all only "apparent" and that he is able to provide logical explanations for them all, one by one, from the Biblical text itself. Reputable Biblical scholars who have even the most rudimentary knowledge of Church history and Biblical manuscript preservation know better than that. The most they shall try to do is to claim that all 14,800-50,000 errors are all "insignificant" and "undeserving of attention" or that they "do not affect basic faith." We have already seen examples of this in the last section. We are asked to understand that the Bible is an ancient book and "obviously" errors will eventually creep in sooner or later. This however overlooks three crucial issues:
Firstly: We are not talking about a regular book here, rather we are searching for the authentic original word of God, and the Bible says:
"The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."
Isaiah 40:8.
So if 14,800-50,000 errors have crept into the Bible then where is the unerring word of God which we have been promised? The answer is that God has sent it to us in His last Scripture, the Noble Qur'an.
Secondly: We are told in Luke 16:10 that Jesus said:
"He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much."
So, according to Jesus himself, there is no such thing as an "insignificant" error or an "insignificant" "slip of the pen." This is especially the case with regard to the "Word of God," and even more so when remembered in light of Isaiah 40:8, or
"How can you say we (the Jews) are wise and the law of the Lord is with us, when in fact the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie?"
Jeremiah 8:8 (RSV).
Thirdly: If one of us were to be charged with the task of preserving our chosen and cherished ancient scripture by transcribing a fresh copy of it for future generations, could we imagine, even in our wildest fantasies that we would be so lax and totally careless in our duties that we would allow ourselves to introduce not one or two, but many thousands upon thousands of errors into the new copy? Is it possible that no one felt the need to review these scribe's work? Did they have no superiors to double and triple check their work? Did the scribes not review it themselves? To believe such claims is to assign to these scribes and their churches accusations of ineptitude and indifference of monumental proportions. There is no two ways about it. If we are not able to explain each and every one of the 14,800-50,000 errors, no matter how "trivial" they may be, one at a time and within the context of the Biblical text alone, then either the errors were introduced intentionally, or else they were introduced through ineptitude and indifference towards their most holy scripture that truly defies imagination.

AdminModulous: See: this page

Edited by AdminModulous, : Rendered invisible - copy/paste without attribution.


This message is a reply to:
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Equinox
Member (Idle past 3314 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 113 of 123 (374069)
01-03-2007 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by pop
01-03-2007 3:52 PM


Re: corruption in the bible
Woah, Nasr, relax.

Yep, there's a lot to talk about, but be aware that with me you are preaching to the choir (that's an American phrase that means "spending a lot of effor to convince someone who is already convinced"). Trying to get me to see error in the Bible is like trying to get the Pope to become Catholic.

Plus, on this thread, all that detail is a bit off topic.

Your energy in this area is sorely needed somewhere else, not here. Check out http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page. You may be able to help, since there are so many Bible verse pages that don't have anything written about them yet. Enjoy!


-Equinox

_ _ _ ___ _ _ _
You know, it's probably already answered at http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/...
(Equinox is a Naturalistic Pagan - www.naturalpagan.org)


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Brian
Member (Idle past 3132 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 114 of 123 (374073)
01-03-2007 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by pop
01-03-2007 3:52 PM


Re: corruption in the bible
The answer is that God has sent it to us in His last Scripture, the Noble Qur'an.

Which is about as reliable as the Bible!

Both books contain internal errors, oodles of contradictions, historical inaccuracies, and outright myths.

it is diificult to class the Qur'an as anything else but the plagiarism and regurgitations of Muhammad, a poor market worker who overheard these fairytales from Jewish and Christians and put his own spin on them.

Both books have been responsible for horrific episodes in human history.

Brian.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 115 of 123 (374100)
01-03-2007 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by pop
01-03-2007 3:52 PM


Hi Pop
Long cut & pastes from other sites, particularly without attribution, is discouraged.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Casey Powell 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 116 of 123 (374136)
01-03-2007 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Thugpreacha
04-01-2006 12:02 AM


Re: Sacred Cows
There's no universal consensus regarding anything in life! Irrational standards. Look at the Flat Earth Society! People still believe in that nonsense, not to mention, Cryptozoologists!

Edited by JesusFighter, : No reason given.


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Casey Powell 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 117 of 123 (374138)
01-03-2007 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Equinox
01-03-2007 10:38 AM


Re: corruption in the bible
What do you base this claim off of? It looks like nonsense to me.

Edited by JesusFighter, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Equinox, posted 01-03-2007 10:38 AM Equinox has responded

Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 4125 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 118 of 123 (374187)
01-03-2007 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Casey Powell
01-03-2007 6:29 PM


Re: corruption in the bible
JesusFighter writes:

It looks like nonsense to me.

Nah, it looks like someone knows their stuff.


This message is a reply to:
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1770 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 119 of 123 (374328)
01-04-2007 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Equinox
01-03-2007 10:38 AM


Re: even more corruption in the bible
Let's not forget the Orthodox Christians. They number in the millions and can trace their history right back to the first century.

Texts recognized as canonical by the Orthodox that Catholics and Protestants omit:


3 Maccabees
4 Maccabees (in appendix)
Psalm 151
Prayer of Manasseh
1 Esdras
3 Esdras (appears in Slavonic Bibles of Russian Orthodox)

Texts recognized as canonical by the Orthodox that Catholics accept but Protestants omit:


Tobit
Judith
Additions to Esther
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees
Wisdom of Solomon
Sirach
Baruch
Letter of Jeremiah
Additions to Daniel
-- Prayer of Azariah
-- Song of the Three Jews
-- Susanna
-- Bel and the Dragon

Look at how much Scripture modern apostates have arrogantly torn from the Bible. It's an outrage!

___

Edited by Archer Opterix, : revised manuscript.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Vacate
Member (Idle past 2773 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 120 of 123 (374343)
01-04-2007 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Archer Opteryx
01-04-2007 7:35 AM


Re: even more corruption in the bible
Its sad really when you realize how limited your knowledge of a subject really is. I don't claim to be a bible expert, but I had the understanding from school and various conversations that the council of Nicea was essentially to decide how to interpret various passages of the bible. Its facinating to see that the various versions do not just change wording but people actually sat down and decided what they would and would not include.

Equinox, Nasr Allah, and Archer Opterix have shown that I know virtually zero about the progression of the bible. I thank all of you for possibly ruining months of my time trying to understand how things came about. Too many topics to cover and not enough days in the week.

I plan to copy/paste all of your posts and hope to be able to give them the time they deserve!


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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