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Author Topic:   Is the bible the word of God or men?
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 272 of 309 (468914)
06-02-2008 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by IamJoseph
06-02-2008 2:57 AM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
all are described as written by their authors, including the 5 books of Moses.
But none of these 5 books claim to be written by Moses.
I mean here, if the OT was written by Moses 3,500 years, it has mysterious elements in its descriptions of dates, names and other historically depicted events and scenarios, which could not be recalled or copied from elsewhere. That much of this pre-history is verifiable and authenticated by scientific observations [archeology] is what constitutes the mystery.
However, not a single person or event in the first five books has been verified, and almost all 'historical' events have been shown to be fictional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by IamJoseph, posted 06-02-2008 2:57 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by IamJoseph, posted 06-02-2008 9:55 PM Brian has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 276 of 309 (469043)
06-03-2008 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by IamJoseph
06-02-2008 9:55 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
That Moses wrote, via inspired dictation, is in the OT texts itself.
Where? Where in the first five books is the claim that Moses wrote them?
The same goes for all 55 prophetic authors.
Every single OT book is anonymous, we do not know who wrote a single one, this is basic beginners Bible study.
You proclaim as if you know or had some new proof - you do not.
The proof is in the texts themselves. Nowhere in the Pentateuch is it stated that Moses wrote the first five books, in fact, it is impossible for him to have done so since events after Moses died are recorded, plus the huge amount of anachronisms in the text, and the constant third person narration completely undermines this false position you cling to.
Only the first two of the 10 C's are mentioned as being delivered via direct audio transmission to over 3 million people simultainiously,
Apart from the ridiculousness of 470 people growing in to 3 million, which has been demonstrated beyond all doubt to be untrue, there are doubts over whether the Bible claims this number of people were involved.
and this was stopped after the people implored Moses to cease the voice, fearing their souls were about to leave them to cling to the source.
We all know the fairytales, but my claim was that NOTHING in the first five books has been verified, this is a fact.
The nation of Israel is verified in a 3200+ stellar from ancient Egyptian, now in a french museum - constituting a cross-nation contemporary proof; this name first appears in the book of Exodus.
Apart from the fact that the Merneptah Stele is outside the date range for the first 5 books, there are no links AT ALL that verify that the Israel mentioned in the Stele is the same one that is mentioned in the Pentateuch. The Stele itself gives no information that verifies anything mentioned in the OT. Here is another archaeological fact, the area allocated to ”Israel’ in the Stele (if the ring cycle is correct) has yielded NOTHING at all that can be described as uniquely ”Israelite’, quite strange for a group of 3 million to be able to hide as well as that.
The thing is, according to the Bible, Israel should have been settled in Canaan with all the Canaanites slaughtered and gone, and the Stele just negates this. Plus the ”Israel’ (if that’s what it says), in the Stele is not a land but a people, and certainly not 3 million.
The claim of fiction was also applied to King David by so-called scholars
Well, we are discussing my claim about the first five books, which David’s existence or non-existence is not covered by.
- but they have never recovered from shame following the House of David discovery 15 years ago, which proved David as an historical figure, who wrote the psalms 3000 years ago, mentions Moses numerously, and which writings alligns fully with the OT narratives.
The Tel Dan Stele does NOT verify that David was an historical figure, there is still great controversies over almost everything to do with the Stele, ranging from the extremely unusual action of Biran to piece the 3 fragments together before any other scholars had a chance to examine them, this is just not the way things are done in archaeology. We don’t even know if the fragments are pieced together properly (a fact that Biran and Naveh both agree with), plus the bytdwd is more than likely a place name rather than a dynasty, and even if it was a dynasty it doesn’t PROVE whether it was a factional dynasty or not. The alleged names of the Israelite and Judean kings are NOT even on the inscription.
David lived a mere 250 years from Moses,
Again I have pointed out your flawed research here in another thread where you conceded that there are differing time scales involved.
and his writings are totally verifiable as historical and contemporary, mentioning nnumerous wars, kings and nations.
We do not have anything that David wrote (or Moses for that matter), so this claim is complete hogwash whether applied to David or Moses.
Proof of david's son Solomon is also now verified, as is the Temple he built, and the follow-up Kings who had wars with Assyria, Moab and Babylon.
We do not have any remains of Solomon’s Temple, or evidence that Solomon existed.
This is followed by 55 prophetic books, some 70 years apart, all of which alligns with the OT narratives, constituting a verifiable historical thread as no other writings in existence.
Since authors copied each other’s writings, and books were selected for ”harmony’, then we should expect some cohesion. But to say anything in the first five books has been verified is either ignorance or outright lying.
Moses is not a proven figure, and the texts itself says his burial place will never be found, in a sense vindicating the texts.
More likely indicating him as a fictional literary character.
Moses is not mentioned in egyptian writings,
Indicating that Moses was a fictional literary character.
because all scholars agree,
No they don’t.
the pharoahs were notorious of erasing any negativity as each Pharoah ascended -
How do you know there was any negativity if it had been erased?
Of course we do have recorded Egyptian defeats. The Hyksos infiltrating and ruling over almost all of Egypt is well recorded in Egyptian sources.
But I can list a 1000 stats contained in the OT texts which are historical and contemporary and which were impossible to have been made up later on.
My claim was regarding the first five books. The OT does get a little more accurate after the exile, which was probably when a great many myths were made up.
So, let’s keep it focussed, give me stats to support ONE single person or event mentioned in the Book of Genesis, and we will find out how amazing this evidence is. Be careful not to fall into the usual apologists trap of circular reasoning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by IamJoseph, posted 06-02-2008 9:55 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by IamJoseph, posted 06-03-2008 10:20 AM Brian has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 277 of 309 (469044)
06-03-2008 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by IamJoseph
06-03-2008 2:48 AM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
That should be the book of Genesis ['Your name shall no more be called Jacob but Israel'/Gen].
That's IF the Israel of Merneptah is the same one as in the Book of Exodus. But, the name 'Israel' is not unique to the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by IamJoseph, posted 06-03-2008 2:48 AM IamJoseph has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 280 of 309 (469433)
06-05-2008 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by IamJoseph
06-03-2008 10:20 AM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
Numerously. E.g:
quote:
Exodus 34/27 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Write thou these words, for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.'
That’s a reference to the tablets containing the Ten Commandments, if you read on you will place your claim in context.
Exodus 34:28-29:
Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant”the Ten Commandments. When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the LORD.
It claims that Moses wrote the Ten Commandments down on two tablets, it doesn’t say he wrote the first five books of the Tanakh, or anything else outside of the Ten Commandments. Nowhere in the Torah is there any hint at all that the books themselves were written by Moses. Moses copying the commandments on to tablets is not a reference to Moses writing anything that appears in the Torah.
Tell me, did Moses write this . Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone. The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over.
How did Moses know that the Israelites grieved thirty days?
How about this?
Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders the LORD sent him to do in Egypt”to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel.
How long AFTER Moses died must this passage have been written? It must have been a very long time since we are told in Deut.34:6 that He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.
To what day? A week later, a year, ten years? None of these is a very impressive claim. However, if it is a few hundred years or even a thousand, then that is a bit more impressive.
How could Moses write this .
Genesis 36:31 These were the kings who reigned in Edom before any Israelite king reigned
He quite simply couldn’t have.
Or..
Exodus 13:17 When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them on the road through the Philistine country, though that was shorter. For God said, "If they face war, they might change their minds and return to Egypt."
Philistines hundreds of years before there were Philistines in the region!
What about this howler .
Numbers 12:3 Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth
The most humble man in the world brags about being humble!
Then there is the very famous Dan anachronism. Mentioned in Genesis 14:14 alongside Abram the city of Dan wasn’t named Dan until Judges 18:27-29
Then they took what Micah had made, and his priest, and went on to Laish, against a peaceful and unsuspecting people. They attacked them with the sword and burned down their city. There was no one to rescue them because they lived a long way from Sidon and had no relationship with anyone else. The city was in a valley near Beth Rehob.
The Danites rebuilt the city and settled there. They named it Dan after their forefather Dan, who was born to Israel”though the city used to be called Laish.
I could go on and on and on, but the point is proven, the claim that Moses wrote the Torah is untenable.
And unlike any other writings, these are absolutely contemporary, historically verifiable stats, with specifics of names, distances and surrounds, as in aerial topography:
Afraid not mate. The names of individuals and locations in the Pentateuch are a real nightmare for the inerrantist, with hardly a place known for certain. For example, look at Ex. 1:11, no one even knows for certain where these two cities are, or even what they were called. How many of the sites mentioned on the Exodus routes have been found for sure?
Mount Nebo is today a popular tourist site, offering a vista of the entire landscape of the land, as depicted here:
quote:
1 And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho. And the LORD showed him all the land, even Gilead as far as Dan;
You keep falling into the same trap as the fundy Xian ”apologists’ do. You seem to think that because a site is mentioned that can be identified then that means that anything associated with that site automatically becomes true! Just because there is a Mount Nebo DOES not mean that Moses was anywhere near it, nor does it even mean that there ever was a Moses, you are back in the world of circular reasoning. What evidence do you have that the biblical ”event’ concerning Moses at Nebo is true? Will I answer for you?
David wrote all the psalms subscribed to him.
You know this because? Some evidence would be nice.
More to follow when I decypher the rest of your post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by IamJoseph, posted 06-03-2008 10:20 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 5:13 PM Brian has replied
 Message 282 by Force, posted 06-05-2008 5:19 PM Brian has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 285 of 309 (469461)
06-05-2008 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by IamJoseph
06-03-2008 10:20 AM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
You claim that my statements here are ’Wrong on all counts.’, but I am not sure if you have read what I posted. Look closer at what I wrote:
Apart from the fact that the Merneptah Stele is outside the date range for the first 5 books, there are no links AT ALL that verify that the Israel mentioned in the Stele is the same one that is mentioned in the Pentateuch. The Stele itself gives no information that verifies anything mentioned in the OT. Here is another archaeological fact, the area allocated to ”Israel’ in the Stele (if the ring cycle is correct) has yielded NOTHING at all that can be described as uniquely ”Israelite’, quite strange for a group of 3 million to be able to hide as well as that.
The thing is, according to the Bible, Israel should have been settled in Canaan with all the Canaanites slaughtered and gone, and the Stele just negates this. Plus the ”Israel’ (if that’s what it says), in the Stele is not a land but a people, and certainly not 3 million.
You start by saying: The stele is from a subsequent pharoah, not the one which confronted Moses.
Now, I have no idea where you imagine I said that it was the pharaoh who confronted Moses that the stele belonged to, since I specifically said the name of the pharaoh and said that it is outside the date range for the first 5 books!
Anyone involved in the ”origins of Ancient Israel’ debate knows that the Merneptah Stele is the earliest mention of an Israel as a people outside of the Bible. The stele is dated to around 1205 BCE, long after the Bible claims that Moses was supposed to have lived. So your claim of ”wrong on all counts is already refuted.
Then I state that there are no links to verify that the Israel mentioned on the stele is the same as the Israel of the Bible. This is a fact. If you have any proof that it is the same Israel then post the evidence, but I know you can’t because there is no external evidence to support Israel in Palestine at the time the stele represents. I dare say you will just claim that there is, as you are not too keen on posting any supporting evidence at all.
My next claim that the stele gives no information that verifies anything mentioned in the Bible is a fact as well. ALL that the stele states regarding Israel is this:
Israel is laid waste, his seed is not
So, tell me, what in the Bible does this information verify?
My final claim is that there is nothing in the archaeological record from Palestine at the time the Stele relates to that can be uniquely identified as ”Israelite’. This is another unadulterated fact. You can disprove this claim by providing some material culture from the time and place that you can prove is uniquely Israelite, then you can collect your phd from any uni you choose.
So, it looks as if everything I have posted is correct, or so far it is, since you have disproved nothing, and all you offer is your uninformed opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by IamJoseph, posted 06-03-2008 10:20 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 10:51 PM Brian has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 286 of 309 (469464)
06-05-2008 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Force
06-05-2008 5:23 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
Joseph doesn't actually know what history is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Force, posted 06-05-2008 5:23 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Force, posted 06-05-2008 5:31 PM Brian has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 288 of 309 (469466)
06-05-2008 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by IamJoseph
06-05-2008 5:13 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
So Rameses and Pithom are not contemporary and authentic egyptian names and cities.
Well with one city's name belonging to the 2nd millenium bce and the other belonging to the first millenium bce they most definitely are not contemporary.
Which pharaoh do you believe Moses dealt with?
Edited by Brian, : spelling and grammar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 5:13 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 10:09 PM Brian has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 289 of 309 (469472)
06-05-2008 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by IamJoseph
06-05-2008 5:13 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
Is Moses an ancient egyptian name
No it isn't!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 5:13 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 9:47 PM Brian has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 290 of 309 (469473)
06-05-2008 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by IamJoseph
06-05-2008 5:13 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
Yes, the philistines entered Arabia shortly after Joseph landed in Egypt.
The earliest reference to the Philistines was c.1188 BCE in the 8th year of Rameses III, long time after Joseph, and for that matter Moses, 'lived'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 5:13 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 9:45 PM Brian has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 295 of 309 (469561)
06-06-2008 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by IamJoseph
06-05-2008 9:47 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
Moses = 'from water' in ancient egyptian. Moses = 'from water' in ancient egyptian.
Incorrect.
Moses is only PART of a name, as in Ahmoses, Rameses, or even Thutmoses.
It means 'born of the god', or 'Son of the god'.
You are confusing the name Moses with the Hebrew verb Mashah, meaning to 'draw out'.
So, another amateur mistake Jo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 9:47 PM IamJoseph has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 296 of 309 (469562)
06-06-2008 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by IamJoseph
06-05-2008 9:45 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
Are you even aware that everything you posted here SUPPORTS what I have said???????????

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 9:45 PM IamJoseph has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 298 of 309 (469677)
06-06-2008 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by deerbreh
06-06-2008 2:07 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
Cheers Deerbreh for pointing that out.
For Jo's info, EVERY scholar involved in the debate over Israel's origin refers to 'Canaan' as Palestine simply because it shows objectivity. Jo has posted this childish reply because he cannot provide any evidence.
He won't provide any evidence because it isn't there. There is nothing at all in the 13th century BCE that can be identified as uniquely Israelite.
Fundies claim that the marneptah stele proves the Bible is true, then when it is pointed out that the stele says that this Israel was wiped out then the fundy then starts reinterpreting.
I can state quite categorically that there is not a single pot sherd, button, or any other material culture in the entire archaeological record from this period that has been identified as 'Israelite.'
The Israel of the Stele may indeed be our biblical Israel, but there's no way of telling for sure from the evidence.
Here's a challenge Joseph, forget the Stele for a minute, what evidence do you have that there was anything Israelite in Egypt OR Palestine (Canaan to head off your body swerve) in the entire 2nd millenium BCE.
That's a whole one thousand year to provide ONE single shred of evidence, how easy can I make it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by deerbreh, posted 06-06-2008 2:07 PM deerbreh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Force, posted 06-07-2008 2:20 AM Brian has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 300 of 309 (469862)
06-08-2008 3:41 AM


bump
Here's a challenge Joseph, forget the Stele for a minute, what evidence do you have that there was anything Israelite in Egypt OR Palestine (Canaan to head off your body swerve) in the entire 2nd millenium BCE.
That's a whole one thousand year to provide ONE single shred of evidence, how easy can I make it?
3 million people wandering around Egypt, then the Sinai, then battling their way into Palestine/Canaan, then settling there, and not a single shred of evidence, you would have thought there would be whole museums full of archaeological evidence.
But there you go, looks like the Bible is a fairytale book after all.

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Nimrod, posted 08-16-2008 2:14 PM Brian has not replied

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