Is the bible the word of God or men?

Scholars form critical-conclusions and the internet sources you use are from un-critical clowns like Joseph Farrah, a right-wing conspiracy freak who runs the racist and discredited WorldNetDaily website. (but discredit doesnt stop clowns from using it)I comb scholarly sources, and I can tell you that there is very little on the net to be found.You might find some o.k. amateur stuff (once every blue-moon), but the complicated matters rarely get the coverage from the wide-angles they deserve.Please do present an academic source JUST ONCE backing up your claims. Then present the academic source.You said there were tons! Define capital?Jerusalem was the largest population center in Palestine throughout the last 1300 years as far as I know.But even if it doesnt meet your arbitrary standards , then does that mean the "Arabs" should be expelled?Do you ever use logic? No wonder fundamentalist "Christians" are generally considered ignorant dorks-because there is a large but of just those types of people who are most vocal (such as yourself). I am choosing words???!!!!You have ignored dozens of actual issue responces I have given TO DIRECTLY REEPOND TO YOUR CLAIMS , and instead YOU IGNORE MY RESPONCES yet just keep on bring up idiotic crap which I keep shooting down.The only reason this whole "Palestine" issue started because you were in shock-and-awe when you saw my quotes of mainstream academic literature and its constant use of the term "Palestine" universally used to denote the entire land of Israel/Palestine.My quotes were in responces to other unresearched lies of yours (ie scholars were close-minded on davids existence and considered him "mythological" ) which I shot down rather completely.That was in addition to many other lies of yours that I proved 100% wrong with academic documentation.You then chose to IGNORE THE ACTUAL ISSUES THEN went on rants on the "Palestine" obsession by claiming that it was a bunch of "Muslim propaganda" and that my scholarly quotes couldnt have dated before 1965.You even responded to a quote I made of William F. Albright (while I was responding to another dishonest claim of yours) and WHILE YOU QUOTED A SENTENCE OF HIS, you very boldly claimed that it couldnt have been published before 1965.It was a 1940 book and much of it was based on academic lectures he gave in 1939! Tell you what IamJoseph.Im going to request that the Mods either ban you (I doubt they will want to listen) or force you to actually respond to the issues I brought up earlier before you take this on 1000 more rabbit trails.You rudely ignore the dozens of other issues that I DIRECTLY RESPONDED TO-with well researched academic quoations from the literature- yet have the audacity to make up a bunch of other phantom issues just on a whim.This Temple Mount issue has *NOTHING* to do with the issue of Palestinians having ancestry in the land, and it is a rabbit trail that fundamentalist "Christians" (dispensationalist bigots who arent fundamental followers of anything the Bible says actually, but fundamental American nationalists that follow 1800's AD inventions) use to confuse the actual issues.You attribution of this phantom issue TO THIS POSTER is offensive, because I consider it a genuinely retarded issue to debate. I would go to the fundie sperm-banks on the web if I wanted to debate whether "Coke or Pepsi is the best flavor" as the question that determines the future of western civilization.I have no problem with people debating the fact that there really is no proof Solomon built the Temple (nor when it was built), but I do have a problem with clowns like you falsely taking the academic debate out of context.And I have a problem with you putting false words in my mouth-especially to avoid discussing the implications of the numerous other sources I quoted (which destroy your false and un-researched charges).Heck, if we werent on thsi rabbit trail, then I could literally respond to dozens of other crapola comments you constantly make (ie "Genesis 1-11 has place-names in a language 4500-5000 years old" plus your claim that Jerusalem was a Hebrew-originated word)The Jerusalem issue cant be debated with you PERIOD because my academic quotations will be in the context of populations centers being described "IN PALESTINE" during a said age (and it will document the falseness of the claim you made above-SEE QUOTE- that Jews were the only people to ever have it as a capital).You will go off on some rabit trail and ignore the fact that I rather completely destroyed another ignorant lie of yours.Go read Three Littel Pigs and debate it on some Hal Lindsey site.Let me handle the sites,like EVC, that have (or did!)reasonable standards of historic credibility, honestly, and integrity.The former is your cup of tea, the latter is an alien world which you simply cant associate with. (whether this is due to your poor character , mental limitations, or both is another issue) Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

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Scholars form critical-conclusions and the internet sources you use are from un-critical clowns like Joseph Farrah, a right-wing conspiracy freak who runs the racist and discredited WorldNetDaily website. (but discredit doesnt stop clowns from using it)

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Nothing wrong in being right wing, nor is WND incorrect: you did not respond to its factors.

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I comb scholarly sources, and I can tell you that there is very little on the net to be found.You might find some o.k. amateur stuff (once every blue-moon), but the complicated matters rarely get the coverage from the wide-angles they deserve.

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Please do present an academic source JUST ONCE backing up your claims.

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I presented camera, which uses historical post scripts and footnotes. I can produce numerous others. You have not responded to the factors in that article.

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-IamJoseph-
They hated it because it was used exclusively to denote Jews the last 2000 years.

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Then present the academic source.

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I did. Even of arab muslim archived sources. In return, I asked you for any evidence whatsoever, to show that muslims used the name Palestinian prior to the 60s: you should have 100s of such evidences if this was the land of muslim palestinians. The fact is, this name was hijacked, as was the OT and the site where the al uqsa now stands. The same was done in India with the babri mosque. It is a tradition with Islamic history to dump mosques on the known sacred sites of other peoples. The issue is, what if this is true? IOW, you have to also state if your position is false. I freely accept that if what you say of muslims being Palestinians, and that these peoples are derived from Jews who converted to islam [your grotesque statement!], or that this land was yours - then Israel should be dismantled and erased. If what you say is false, do you agree that the muslims should vacate, along with their mosque - to a holier site in Mecca? You cannot hold both positions.

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Define capital?

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Why - are you confused?

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Jerusalem was the largest population center in Palestine throughout the last 1300 years as far as I know.

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Not true. Jerusalem was a barren, desolate, malaria infested swamp, never attended by muslims, till the return of Jews from Europe and Arab lands. Mark Twain's description in the 1800s says there was not a man for a 100 miles in any direction. Also, the notion of third holyiest muslim site is a post quran improvisation to justify robbery. Do you at least accept that knowingly erecting a mosque in another peoples' most sacred site is 'WRONG'?! That forbidding its original owners from worship here is grotesque, and signs such as DOGS & JEWS FORBIDDEN, making jewish graveyards as donkey stables, and using tomb stones as tiles to walk upon - is as far from Gdliness and any morality as is possible?

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But even if it doesnt meet your arbitrary standards , then does that mean the "Arabs" should be expelled?

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Yes, because they cannot accept to live in peace and respect a nation's laws. Arabs who chant the destruction of a nation which houses them must leave. The arabs in palestine would be the world's least effected refugees, and have more options and facilities than any other. The correct law says:'HONOUR THE LAWS OF THE KINGDOM [COUNTRY] WHICH HOUSES YOU' [OT].Do you? Not in Briton, US, Europe or India. Is it not wrong to erect mosques in non-muslim lands, and forbid this equal right in Islamic lands? is it not wrong to have nazi-style antisemtic books and TV shows in islamic lands - then show outrage over cartoons and a demand for death of a teacher who innocently names a toy as Mohammed? Why are muslims not rebelling against known falsehoods of the Protocols on Islamic TV, presented as historical fact? Such harbouring of falsehoods only puts PAID to your statements denying the Arabs hijacked this name for political reasons only. I say, you should run far from this name, and confront truth - even if it is distasteful. I see the use of this name by muslims as an insult to them - you see it as a means of robbing more lands which you do not need. The obsession of upholding a blatant distruth has caused great damage to muslims - they have not progressed as any other nation has, being too obsessed in proving a lie as a truth.

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Do you ever use logic? No wonder fundamentalist "Christians" are generally considered ignorant dorks-because there is a large but of just those types of people who are most vocal (such as yourself).

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Stop it! Christians are only the most advanced and powerful religious group on the planet today, and their countries are run today by majestic laws, such as equal rights to all its citizens - muslims, atheists, chinese and women.

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You have ignored dozens of actual issue responces I have given TO DIRECTLY REEPOND TO YOUR CLAIMS , and instead YOU IGNORE MY RESPONCES yet just keep on bring up idiotic crap which I keep shooting down.

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I have responded to all your posts. I have no idea what your talking about.

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The only reason this whole "Palestine" issue started because you were in shock-and-awe when you saw my quotes of mainstream academic literature and its constant use of the term "Palestine" universally used to denote the entire land of Israel/Palestine.

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Nope. I responded to other issues, and you read one of my sentences and started lashing out with names and how evil I was to 'genocide' [sic] your palestinians. I do not want to discuss this issue, it will make no head way even if the land itself picked you up by the ears and belted you as it states the truth. I only respond to your false charges.

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My quotes were in responces to other unresearched lies of yours (ie scholars were close-minded on davids existence and considered him "mythological" ) which I shot down rather completely.

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My posts relating to David is not the problem, nor is there any doubt about the Tel Dan discovery. Yes, of course David conquered the Philistines in Gaza; yes this was a terrorist group which invaded several lands and ships at sea; yes this group has no connection with Arabs or muslims; yes this land of Palestine was the ancestral homeland of the jews, and Jerusalem was established by Jews and not by muslims - this is true even predating the arab and muslim peoples.

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That was in addition to many other lies of yours that I proved 100% wrong with academic documentation.

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Not a single one. That the tel Dan find revoked past claims of myth and is now accepted by the archeological community is hardly a lie, or that David conquered the palestinians, established Jerusalem as the capital, and that he wrote the Psalms 3000 years ago:

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On the Reliability of the Old Testament By Kenneth Anderson Kitchen
Summary

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On the Reliability of the Old Testament - K. A. Kitchen - Google Books

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For more than two hundred years controversy has raged over the reliability of the Old Testament. Questions about the factuality of its colorful stories of heroes, villains, and kings, for example, have led many critics to see the entire Hebrew Bible as little more than pious fiction. In this fascinating new book, noted ancient historian K. A. Kitchen takes strong issue with today's revisionist critics and offers a firm foundation for the historicity of the biblical texts.In a detailed, comprehensive, and entertaining manner, Kitchen draws on an unprecedented range of historical data from the ancient Near East -- the Bible's own world -- and uses it to soundly reassess both the biblical record and the critics who condemn it. Working back from the latest periods (for which hard evidence is readily available) to the remotest times, Kitchen systematically shows up the many failures of favored arguments against the Bible and marshals pertinent permanent evidence from antiquity's inscriptions and artifacts to demonstrate the basic honesty of the Old Testament writers. Enhanced with numerous tables, figures, and maps, "On the Reliability of the Old Testament" is a must-read for anyone interested in the question of biblical truth.

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The House of David Inscription

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Archaeology! >> The House of David Inscription
The House of David Inscription
Biblical Archaeology: The House of David and Solomon's Temple
Biblical archaeology covering ancient Israeli kings and culture received a huge lift in 1994 when archaeologists discovered a stone inscription at the ancient city of Dan, which refers to the "House of David." The House of David Inscription (Tel Dan Inscription) is important because it's the first ancient reference to King David outside the Bible.

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The House of David Inscription (also known as the “Tel Dan Inscription”) was discovered in 1994 during excavations at the ancient city of Dan. It is considered by many to be the first reference to the "House of David" discovered outside the biblical text.

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The House of David Inscription appears to be a fragment of a victory monument erected by a king of Damascus (Aram) during the 9th century BC, some 250 years after King David’s reign. The fragment specifically mentions victories over a “king of Israel” (probably Joram) and a king of the “House of David” (probably Ahaziah).
The House of David Inscription (Tel Dan Inscription) currently resides in the Israel Museum, Jerusalem.
The House of David Inscription

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Is the dead sea scrolls, which unearthed the Temple Scrolls, a lie? Ironically, this was found by an Arab, and t records the servicing of the Temple, like a working manual, how its sub-terranean irragation works and how many personnell were engaged. This is the same place the Islamic mosque was erected, which was destroyed by Pre-islamic arabs [The Josephus documents].

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The *complicated* issue involved is that the word similar to "Palestine" -which was used to describe the entire land- was a translation of the Hebrew Israel (actually Israel was an Amorite word) and was used first by Herodotus.

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No, this is not true at all. The name of Israel predates the Greeks, and its oldest found reference is the Egytian stele dated more than 3000 years. It is made up of two Hebrew words, and was never the name of another entity.

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Merneptah Stele

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The Merneptah Stele a significant archaeological discovery.

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Merneptah was a Pharaoh who ruled over Egypt in the late 13th century B.C. The son of Ramesses the Great (Ramesses II), Merneptah was the fourth Pharaoh of the 19th Dynasty.

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The “Merneptah Stele” is the name given to a stone slab engraved with a description of Merneptah’s military victories in Africa and the Near East. It was discovered by renowned British archaeologist Flinders Petrie at Thebes in 1896.

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The Merneptah Stele is significant to biblical archaeologists because it is the earliest extra-biblical reference to the nation of Israel yet to be discovered. The mention of Israel is very short; it simply says, “Israel is laid waste, its seed is not.” Nevertheless, despite its brevity, the reference is very telling. It indicates that at the time the inscription was engraved, the nation of Israel was significant enough to be included by name among the other major city-states which were defeated by Merneptah in the late 13th century B.C. This implies that Israel was a major player in the region during the late 13th century, serving to corroborate to a degree the biblical narrative.

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Because it remains the earliest known extra-biblical reference to the nation of Israel, the Merneptah Stele is also commonly known as the Israel Stele, or the Israel Stela (stela being another way to say and write stele). It is currently housed in the Cairo Museum in Cairo, Egypt.

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The Merneptah Stele, which dates to about 1230 BC, was discovered in Thebes, Egypt in the late 1800’s. The Inscription contains a hymn and a list of the Pharaoh's military victories. The Nation of Israel is on the list of conquests, which scholars believe is the earliest reference to Israel outside the Bible.

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The Merneptah Stele currently resides in the Cairo Museum, Egypt.

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The real ironic issue, is that non of this matters ( the issue of a regional/national title).The issue is that modern day Palestinians DO HAVE roots in the land with ancestry that leads to ALL peoples who ever lived there (including Jewish converts to Islam or christianity!).

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Take the founder of Christianity for a quite illustration;

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Jesus had a larger faimily of ethnic-Jewish conerts to what would become(or was) Christianity.100 years later, its obvious non of the Christian descndants would consider themselves "Jewish" if they even knew they had ancestors who were.

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The descendants are called "Arabs" (or heaven forbid "Palestinians"!) today and people like IamJoseph are arguing for their extermination from the land.

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Not true at all. You are trying to negate Israel's history - which is one of the most known, and has no resemblance with Islamic slants of history. The jews are not converted muslims - this is the antithesis of the truth. Jews never accepted islam despite the enforced mode of converting peoples by the sword - 1000s were murdered in mecca and medina for this reason. Even when mohammed chose to face Jerusalem in prayer, as an inducement, the jews rejected it. This caused the abrupt turn around to Mecca. The notion of palestinians and jews equally being in this land is ridiculous, and makes a mockery of real history; the original philistines were foreigners in this land, and the neo muslim palestinians never existed pre-1960. The arabs were foreigners when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, being brought in as paid mercenaries. Even the greeks predate the arabs in this region.The details concerning christianity is also misrepresented, along with the names and dates of history; the christians and the gospels uphold the history of Abraham according to the OT, not the Quran. There was no Islamic or Arab archives till 350 CE - the date of the first arabic writings, and muslims cannot evidence any ancient history prior to this date. The pre-islamic arabs learnt of monotheism from the jews, and emulated all their laws, rituals and traditions from Jews being in dispersement throughout this region after the babylonian exile. Rituals such as 24-hour burials, facing a sacred place while praying, uttering a blessing when a revered name is mentioned - are not divine revelations but emulations of pre-existing jewish practices. The law of precedence applies - even when some claim it as divine revelation, and then go on to negate their victim's identity totally.Muslims should thank jews for their religion - not anyone else.

The biggest difference between IamJoseph and myself is that I think all peoples are Gods children and nobody should be exterminated or driven from their homes.I literally follow Christ and Pauls teachings that race isnt an issue and all are worthy of human dignity.Joseph rejects the teachings of Christ
and instead follows the right-wing fascist model of nationalism brought by (first) the Roman Empire and later all other "Christian" church/state rulers.The right-wing "Christianity" of IamJoseph left a pool of blood (literally) as it attempted to kill every last Jew and Muslim in Christian run lands.It has taken a far far worse turn since the advent of the dispensationalist movement of the post 1800's.It (dispensationalism)teaches that Jews are a special race and that Palestinians have no humanity at all becaue they,as Arabs, are not of the "chosen bloodline".Plus it combines hateful (not to mention unscholarly inventions) "Biblical prophetic" views which further wars in as many Middle Eastern lands as possible.These hateful teachings cause small-minded "fundamentalists" like IamJoseph to deny "Arabs" (ie Palestinains) their humanity and he justifies it by racial arguments that demand Jews and Palestinains are a seperate people (thus IamJoseph denys the teachings of the New Testament which says all are Gods children).With honsety, honor and sincerity, I continue the debate... OK., then I will.But, unlike you, I will present the EVIDENCE based on endless U.S. court decision's which
featured extremely critical U.S. Judges and U.S. Congression decisions DECIDING ON WHETHER SYRIANS & PALESTINIANS ARE DESCENDANTS OF JEWISH CONVERTS TO CHRISTIANITY OR ISLAM!The multitudes of decisions were based on every last scholarly and scientific piece of evidence presented too. Here is the quote Joseph present as facts (right-wing dirtbag and liar Joseph Farah in action!) This is the racist lie which dispensationalists MUST promote in order for their "fundamentalist" theology of dispensationalism which is the racist movement known as "biblical prophecy" that Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, John Hagee and other servents of Satan propagate 24/7.ie. "Palestinains are just Arabs ... and as we dispensationalist know verywell, Arabs arent humans"ie "jews are the chosen race because they have the chosen bloodline .... Arabs are a seperate race"Disgusting theology but they feel it is "Christianity" in its fundamental form.The New Testament rejects race as a concept all-together , so this racial business is biblically incorrect to say the least.BUTLets look at the evidence though.Are Arabs a seperate breed of humanity who have no ancestors from the ancient Jewish people?Specifically, "Syrians" which up till recently was a geographic/political term including modern day Syrians, Palestinians, Lebanese, and Jordanians.Here is what the 1910/1911 Encyclopedia Britannica said the scholarly and historical facts show(which havnt changed). This absoluetly kills the racist views of IamJoseph and "biblical propechy" which demands seperate races among Jews and Palestinians.The term Syria was the historicly broad term which includes Palestinians and Lebanese.Here is a 1995 book which covers a slightly narrower definition of Syria (essentially the modern nation-state), and it is important to show that one cant just shoe-horn a single ancient people (race) into a modern peoples bloodline (which dispensationalists like IamJoseph MUST DO to maintain their ignorant theology!) Arabs arived in 638 B.CE. and they clearly arent the major bloodline among Syrians.Historically "Syrian" (for reasons I will cover later) has-for 2000 years- refered not just to the peoples of modern day "Syria" but also Palestine, Lebanon and also Jordan.IamJoseph and other dispensationalists surely dont know this, but U.S. Courts have been forced to make dozens of decisions which prove that syrians are not Arabs but are infact largely descendant of Jew's!As well as the U.S. congress.
Here is a link detailing the history of legal decisions involved...(the issue centered around our racist immigration laws which discriminated against non-whites , thus it became an issue what ones ancestry was among people who were non-European)http://www.aaiusa.org/foundation/355/not-quite-white Whew!Those "majestic laws" sure make you sick, but the clsoe examanation of cultural ancestry in thousands of hours of razor-sharp examanation INDIRECTLY PROVE THAT SYRIANS ARE PART JEWISH.(The larger issue was whether Syrians were Arab, Asian, or "white" and being part-Jewish wasnt the larger issue but the Jewish ancestry helped their case because Jews were considered/judged "white" already)Remember that "Syrians" included Palestinians.How does this effect IamJosephs racist "prophecy views"?It kills them!So not only does the New testament testify against racial prophecy but so does the very bloodline of the peoples themselves!There truely is neither Jew nor Gentile!We are all one and the same!So why cant we "Christians" follow the Bible and offer peace to the world and not war?I say we let Jews and Palestinians live together in peace.Let Palestinians return to their homes.Pray for the peace of Israel (and remember the definition of Palestine? ---Israel!!!) You said the term Palestine was never used till around 100A.D. and then never used till 1965 A.D. by "Arab" residents of Palestine.You said it was a Palestinian plot to "hijack" the Palestinan name which you claimed they stole for malicious reasons.You claimed the Palestinians didnt exit in the land till after the 1800s.You only presented cheap-internet quotes of un-researched right-wing liars who made charges but without evidence. (I can find 1 trillion of those)The only comments you found from Palestinians were comments that said that they didnt like the nation-state divisions of historic Syria all-together.It (your quotes of Palestinians) said nothing about them not having lived in Palestine.You are so ignorant of history."Palestine" has been used for 2500 years as the name for the entire land.Though it was part of historic Syria-Palestine , the small strip of land we call "Israel" was always called Palestine by Arab residents!When the Arabs arrives,it was called Palestine from 600 AD to 2007 AD today!By Arabs!And it was called that for over 1000 years before(I already covered this once, but Ill show you alot more academic sources to educate you even more) The fact is that Arabs continued to call it the same name the Father of History called it 2500 years ago.(more recent scholarship shows it probably was a translation of Israel-see my earlier references to 2003 Encyclpedias with world-class scholars)And Arabs seemed to be historically consistent in 1948 when they only wanted it to cover the land west of Jordan (not trans-Jordan!)which is how they seemed to use the term for 1300 years.Though "Syria/Palestine" was the larger description for the land of Syria (in its historic sense which included Lebanon and Palestine), and often simply calling Palestine "syria" would be correct.The Arabs had genuine historic integrety in 1948 when they choose the exact names for the emerging natinons!Simply amazing accuracy and devotion to historicly consistent geography and regional titles.(!)Let the truth shine! Lets see what is truth in history then,shall we?I will be heavily quoting from the conservative Christian publishers series Baker Studies in Biblical Archaeology; specifically the Jerusalem Through the Ages volume.All quotes will be from pages 60-80 roughly.Hereafter, I might be simply using the name "Pfeiffer" to label his work mentioned above; I will also be quoting from the Anchor Bible Dictionary (hereafter ABD?) , and perhaps another book or 2.Enter 638 AD/CEHISTORICAL NOTE:Remember that the Christians of Palestine, Egypt and Syria were being killed by the East Roman Empire at this time.Typically Monophysite's are well know to mainstream historians (like the various & dozens of groups of Gnostics who were slaughtered a few hundred years back)-infact A&E's History Of Christianity pointed out that they didnt fight the Muslims when the Arab Armies arrived at their gates (there was a weak imperial army that fought).A&E rightly pointed out that Christians had "religious freedom for the first time under their new Muslim masters" when the Arab armies conquered them.I will be starting Pfeiffers great work in 638 AD after 2 legions of Aramaic Christians joined the Arab armies in freeing Christians and Jews (well there werent any Jews left by 638 AD really) from the religious right Byzantium Empire (East Roman) and taking Palestine. By 1009 a complete flake came to power (right wing liars try to portray this guy as a typical "Muslim").He was a ruler who had a Muslim father and Christian mother. He would then issue an edict forbidding Muslims from making the pilgrimage to Mecca.He was overthrown and probably killed.The "Christian" leaders in Europe used propaganda of Hakim to issue the Crusades in the coming decades.Enter the Crusades!just before 1100 Then they took Jerusalem where 3 faiths lived in peace for 461 years! Saladin made sure that the rebuilt Church of Holy Sepulchre wasnt destroyed again and he reminded Muslims of the kind spirit of Omar.Later battles of Saladin against Crusaders... Europe continued to send Crusaders and actually controlled Jerusalem briefly for short periods in 1229 and 1241.Out of Persia came the Khwarizman tribe of Turks and threatened Muslims and Christians in the Middle east. The result was that the last Crusader strongholds were finally gone as well as the Crusaders!Thank God.About 10,000 Christians and Muslims would remain in Jerusalem and would be forever in peace with one another. the numbers never dropped below 10,000.(Outside of Palestine, the Turks would slaughter other Christians around 1910 however) The Arab population (ie Muslims and Christians) of Palestinians was about 10,000 from 1517 to 1830.The Jewish population around 1,000.Still not a small population for a land (Palestine) that was only a few hundred thousand.My 1955 World book encyclopedia said of the "Old City" of Jerusalem Guess there is another solid witness that the town was going strong for 300 years-which destroys Josephs un-critical swallowing of Mark Twain comment. (I never read it, and frankly Ill take solid historical records over somebody lost in the desert 50 miles from town lol)Its true that peoples increased during the 1800's but that is just a testament to the peaceful nature of Jerusalem's Musilm masters and the Palestinian people!Here is more evidnce of the peaceful relations between the mUslim rulers and Christian Palestinians.from the same 1955 book Earlier in the same article it stated "until 1948 there was also a Jewish section".Before 1948, here is my honest view of the historical situation describing the rulers of Jerusalem/palestine...Muslims never killed Jews and Jews never killed Muslims.christians (right-wing Europeans) slaughtered both!Infact christians slaughtered Chistians.There was that lunatic Hakim from 1009-1016 but Muslims suffered from him too.That displaced Turkish tribe came in several hundred eyars later but the Crusaders has already made the situation a potential mess before. I dont play your right-wing "christian" game that somebody has to be the enemy!I want all people to continue to live in love and harmony as happened when Muslims ruled.AND ONLY WHEN MUSLIM PALESTINIANS RULED!Your racist comments are disgusting too.o yea.Im a non-Arab, non-Muslim too.Next time you make crap up, do a better job ..um actually HOW ABOUT YOU JUST DECIDE TO BE AN HONEST PERSON??? How many people have to live somewhere for the people themselves to be considered human.The town was big by Palestinian standards.Also, quote my entire context next time.My point has been that you want to impose some arbitrary standard to make some lame, and dishonest, point.Readsomething useful for a change.Afraid the facts might shock you? Thie problem is that your version of history doesnt match history's version of history.Its a persistent problem. Read the Pfeiffer book I quoted. (read the parts I didnt quote)He is a conservative Christian.When the European christians controlled Jerusalem till from c323 to 638, they ended up desecrating the Temple and using it as a trash dump.When Muslims (under Omar) got there, Jews werent left and Christians desecrated the site.The Jews were allowed to return after 500+ years of persecution.Christians had religious freedom for the first time ever.There was 461 years of complete peace.Jews and even European Christians were allowed to come in from everywhere at times.Also, the Crusaders didnt consider the Dome Of The Rock to be anything but "Solomons Temple".Thats the only name they ever called it.Nobody but you and opportunistic right-wing bigots even care about this.Im pissed about the garbage dump though.The Temple is dead to my heart and its all the more reasons why the Muslims were the best caretakers Jerusalem and palestien ever had!Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

I know you are good at research, but what does any of that have to do with the topic?

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Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

It can show how men mis-interpret the Bible and history.
(Im off work for a week or so btw)Plus,people like Joseph should be responded to in every way.I have no problem taking to time to show what others wont.I only wish I could cover these topics in much more detail.I LOVE to show how "prophecy" has been twisted (full of relevant New testament quotations) but that would take too much time.Anyway, if people want to bit*h about racism and wars and such, then TRUST ME- we better start attacking the root of them.The root of all wars are ignorance, hatred, lies and racism.Expose them!Now let me show Joseph how it was Muslims who stopped Christians from desecrating the Temple Mount. (Christians killed all Jews and used the Temple Mount as a garbage dump till the Muslims stopped it!)I am going to quote a historian/scholar just a conservative as Albright on this one.

Nimrod How about you start a thread devoted to that then?

If you can get the Mods to import the ENTIRE discussion of Joseph and myself to a new thread , then I will leave this thread.First, let me finish editing my post (Im doing other things like moving snow right now)on THIS thread.Again, get the MODs to double every last one of my posts (and Josephs posts chronologically in-between) to a new thread , and I will be happy then.I only ask that my post #140 gets left here so i dont loose my typing while editing it because it is gone by the time I hit "enter"

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The biggest difference between IamJoseph and myself is that I think all peoples are Gods children and nobody should be exterminated or driven from their homes.

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Every arab regime, not just that of Iran, speaks of genociding Israel - by hiding behind the 'Sufferin' Pals' excuse. By subsequence, this should apply to all the so-called good muslims and islam. The same applies to Bin Laden being free today, treated as a neo islamic prophet instead of a mass murderer - where are your brave freedom fighters? I note you talk about Jews, as if they have no homeland and that they will not sacrfice their lives to defend Israel from Islamic genocide. You are wrong:their history says otherwise. Please tell us clearly, which is the jewish homeland? Or does the sufferin' Pal justify your absence of saying so?I have challenged you in open forum to evidence any muslim Palestinians - you have failed to do so. I put it to you, the only reason Muslims use the Pretend Pal excuse is to negate Israel: you guys don't care a jiff about the Palestinians - but Israel did care for jewish refugees from Arab lands, and did not exploit them as a sore point to win political gains. Nor do I see you crying about Jewish refugees - which were greater than yours in number and losses. Stop hiding and accusing me of your nonesense - I won't run from truth even if the whole world backs your falsehoods. I say to you, it is a wrong and immoral statement to speak of palestinians and not israel and Zionists - first state Israel's rights and history - to show us you abide by any truth.The truth is, even if Jews were from Mars, even if they never lived in the Middle-east, they can still be allowed a soccer-sized landmass, with no oil, from a so-called religion of peace: and it won't flick a fly off a camel's tail. You have more new states than you can count - what do you need to collect more - and why invent Pretend pals - because the EU & UN corrupted history for you? This, I see, as a test unto you: you will be exposed by those you wish to negate: the truth will fell your falsehoods.

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I literally follow Christ and Pauls teachings that race isnt an issue and all are worthy of human dignity.
Joseph rejects the teachings of Christ
and instead follows the right-wing fascist model of nationalism brought by (first) the Roman Empire and later all other "Christian" church/state rulers.
The right-wing "Christianity" of IamJoseph left a pool of blood (literally) as it attempted to kill every last Jew and Muslim in Christian run lands.It has taken a far far worse turn since the advent of the dispensationalist movement of the post 1800's.

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It (dispensationalism)teaches that Jews are a special race and that Palestinians have no humanity at all becaue they,as Arabs, are not of the "chosen bloodline".Plus it combines hateful (not to mention unscholarly inventions) "Biblical prophetic" views which further wars in as many Middle Eastern lands as possible.

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These hateful teachings cause small-minded "fundamentalists" like IamJoseph to deny "Arabs" (ie Palestinains) their humanity and he justifies it by racial arguments that demand Jews and Palestinains are a seperate people (thus IamJoseph denys the teachings of the New Testament which says all are Gods children).

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With honsety, honor and sincerity, I continue the debate...

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Desperate, are you not?

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-Nimrod-
Scholars form critical-conclusions and the internet sources you use are from un-critical clowns like Joseph Farrah, a right-wing conspiracy freak who runs the racist and discredited WorldNetDaily website. (but discredit doesnt stop clowns from using it)

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Nothing wrong in being right wing, nor is WND incorrect: you did not respond to its factors.

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OK., then I will.But, unlike you, I will present the EVIDENCE based on endless U.S. court decision's which
featured extremely critical U.S. Judges and U.S. Congression decisions DECIDING ON WHETHER SYRIANS & PALESTINIANS ARE DESCENDANTS OF JEWISH CONVERTS TO CHRISTIANITY OR ISLAM!

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Nothing whatsoever to do with israel's rights and history. You guys know this better than any American court - you are from this region. Tell us your version of israel and her rights. Tell us how Israel lost her lands, and how many paid pre-islamic, non-palestinian arabs were recruited in that Roman army? Tell us why Jews were not able to return? Tell us why you erected a mosque in the known site of another peoples. Tell us why you forbid jews from Jerusalem and Hebron. tell us why you burnt down tombs of Rachel and Joseph - which is by far a more cherished, older and recognised symbol than anything in Islam. Tell us why you have nothing against Jews!

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The multitudes of decisions were based on every last scholarly and scientific piece of evidence presented too.

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Re: When you say "Palestinian" you are saying "Israelite"!
-Nimrod-
A major belief of yours has been shattered rather completely.

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Pardon me - I blinked.

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-IamJoseph
I do not go by belief, and let historical facts rule

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Here is the quote Joseph present as facts (right-wing dirtbag and liar Joseph Farah in action!)

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Palestine has never existed...as an autonomous entity. There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.
....

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From Myths of the Middle East, Joseph Farah, Arab-American editor and journalist, WorldNetDaily, 11 October 2000

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This is the racist lie which dispensationalists MUST promote in order for their "fundamentalist" theology of dispensationalism which is the racist movement known as "biblical prophecy" that Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, John Hagee and other servents of Satan propagate 24/7.

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It also happens to be 100% true. Truth can never be presented as racism - only its denial can. Please tell me why The Jerusalem Post media of today, was called the Palestinian Post [both english and hebrew versions] - was it because they wanted to rob your heritage? Is it not the other way around?

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ie. "Palestinains are just Arabs ... and as we dispensationalist know verywell, Arabs arent humans"

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ie "jews are the chosen race because they have the chosen bloodline .... Arabs are a seperate race"

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Disgusting theology but they feel it is "Christianity" in its fundamental form.

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Your words, not mine. And your getting pretty desperate here, resorting to such responses. Last time I checked, there is chosen to be a light unto the nations, meaning by example, and thus a dire responsibility; and there is chosen to use the sword, and forbid any religion in Arabia, all others are infidels and/or born of apes [quranic dogma]. How selective of your chosen menu. Its a lie by omission.Fact is, Jews lived in Arabia, outside of Israel, for 2700 years after the Babylon exile. In the last 2500 years, the Arab race emerged and converted this region by the sword; jews lost most of their peoples but steadfastly and stiff-neckedly remained jewish: this is my understanding of history, and by events which transpired since then as its evidence. How many arab cities did jews rob from you - how many arabs did jews displace or persecute - give me a single example, other than the Preten Pal issue?

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The New Testament rejects race as a concept all-together , so this racial business is biblically incorrect to say the least.

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Why are there no churches, synagogues and hindhu temples in Saudi Arabia? Why are muslims not demanding equality here - while erecting churches on every suburb across the western world and in asia? I tell you this will come to naught in the end - by exposure of its goal.

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BUT

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Lets look at the evidence though.

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Are Arabs a seperate breed of humanity who have no ancestors from the ancient Jewish people?

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You have no connection with jews - or with Ishmail on a direct, evidential basis. It does not mean anything more than that - refers only to historical truth. The arab race emerged 1500 years after Abraham, and islam emerged 2500 years after. And for 2500 years - your never followed the Abrahamic belief. It does not mean anything more than that. That this fact can be used to show racism is bollox, and your own views.

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Specifically, "Syrians" which up till recently was a geographic/political term including modern day Syrians, Palestinians, Lebanese, and Jordanians.

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Here is what the 1910/1911 Encyclopedia Britannica said the scholarly and historical facts show(which havnt changed).

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The Encyclopedia britannica
Eleventh edition
Vol 2
AND To AUS
ARABS
p283-284

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The name, to-day the collective term for the overwhelming majority of the surviving Semitic peoples, was originally restricted to he nomad tribes who ranged the north of the peninsula east of .. the Syro-Arabian desert...it had come to include all the inhabitants of the penninsula.

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The arabs to-day occupy, besides Arabia ...

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The finest type of the race is found in south Arabia...

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The peoples of Syria and Palestine are hybrdis of Arab, Phoenician and Jewish descent.

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There were no arabs at this time - your post does not give any datings! This is a thread which asks for evidences of any writings: where is yours? The term Palestinians is used today in some cases - specially pre-arab/islamic sites, to present this name as if it existed in ancient times, by virtue it is called this in modern times: it did not exist before 70 CE. Nor has this name any connection with the original palestinians [philistines]. It emerged again after Rome applied it upon the Jews in 70 CE only. It re-appeared again a few decades ago by the arabs - who were mostly from surrounding states and swept to Palestine when jews started returning: the arabs corrupted the UN, and decreed that anyone who stays in Palestine 2 years - is a Palestinian! It is a hoaxy, politically motivated usage of this name, along with the notion of jews being your ancesters after converting to islam - another negation tool adopted to prop up the Pretend Pal syndrome. jews did not embrace Islam, despite that 1000s of women and children were taken captive and converted - after their husbands were beheaded. This occured throughout Islam's spread: check what occured in India, a nation which was so hospitable to muslims: over 700M Indians were genocided. The premise of 'Sathi' comes from here, whereby most of the Indian women threw themselves on their husband's piers of fire than live with muslims. No nation is perfect - but you are posing a candy-coated history of yourself - its BS.

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This absoluetly kills the racist views of IamJoseph and "biblical propechy" which demands seperate races among Jews and Palestinians.

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?! This time i did'nt even blink. The OT declares equal rights for all [inalienable human rights]; love the stranger [one from another belief and creed]; and Monotheism - without attaching any names such as Moses, Mohammed, etc. Please show us your equivalence, before making such charges about seperate races? The world does not follow islamic laws - they do accept the OT laws; christianity did, and the west and asia follow these laws in all their institutions - including atheist countries, who follow most of the ethical and moral OT laws; those who do not are seen as outside the law. Islamic states remain outside the law - there is no reciprocity and equality with Muslims. there is no Fatwah for Bin Laden, and Bush is a bad guy because 9/11 is not an Islamic plot.

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The term Syria was the historicly broad term which includes Palestinians and Lebanese.

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No, this is an impossibilty. Syria [previously assyria, and an ally of ancient babylon], was not assocated with israel, Judea or Samaria, and the term Palestine is a fiction for ancient periods. Lebanon of course is a most ancient country, listed in the OT and in the book of Kings, as an ally of Solomon. Cedar and herbs were imported from Lebanon to build Solomon's temple in Jerusalem - after David established this as the Capital, and after conquering the original Palestinians. I have no idea where your version of history comes from, but it does not represent any truths. You failed altogether to factor Israel, while spewing gibberish about palestinians and ancient Syria.

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Here is a 1995 book which covers a slightly narrower definition of Syria (essentially the modern nation-state), and it is important to show that one cant just shoe-horn a single ancient people (race) into a modern peoples bloodline (which dispensationalists like IamJoseph MUST DO to maintain their ignorant theology!)

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Any theology must also allign with factual history. The ground spitting our proof is not theology. I posted for you, the Tel Dan discovery, and the Egyptian stele which mentions Israel; and there is also the Scrolls - which predates 70CE and makes no mention of your Pretend Pals. The name Israel is not from the source you claimed, nor does the name palestine or palestinian enter this history. If anyone is using a theology, which is not historical at all, appears only your postings - which is absent of historical dates and names.

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Cultures Of The World
Syria
by
Coleman South
1995
published by
Marshall Cavendish

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Times Books International

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p45

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Syria may have the most diverse ethnic mix of any Arab country. Most Syrians are a mixture of ancient Phoenician , Babylonian,and Assyrian and more modern french and turkish.Most consider themselves to be Arabs.

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This pertains only to modern times ['modern french'!]. Syria predates the arab race.

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although the majority of the people have olive-toned skin, dark brown eyes, and black hair, there is suprising variety in physical attributes. They range from blonde hair and very pale skin to a dark brown skin color with jet black hair. Quite a few Syrians have blue or pale gray eyes, usually wit dark hair.Red hair and medium brown hair are also common-sometimes accompanied by pale, freckled skin and brown eyes.
....

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And the first recording of a fair woman [blonde] related to Sarah who visited ancient Egypt - this peoples were, unlike the North of Arabia, darker, and never saw a blonde person before; the term 'fair' here refers to blonde in hebrew, not just fair skin. ['And sarah was fair to look upon/Gen/OT]. What has this to do with anything? The ancesters of Abraham [and jews] come from Ur - which is ancient Mesopotamia - so here is a historical vindication of the OT texts, which you debase as a racist theology.

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Although there is no violent racism, there seems to be a general feeling of superiority among lighter-kinned Syrians.Blacks are not generally liked or respected, nor are bedouins , even though they are the original Arabs whose ancient cultural elements are still a big part of modern Arabia.

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They should take some lessons from Israel! Go for it.

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....

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There is little socializing between upper and lower classes...

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This is aginst the OT laws. How about your laws?

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World Book Encyclopedia
1988
SYRIA

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....
More than 90% of all Syrians speak Arabic ... and consider themseles to be Arabic.Most of them are descended from people called Semites who settled in ancient Syria.

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So? The arab states forbid other languages. The anomoly is, your syrian arabs do not speak Hebrew - what does that tell us - that jews are today's Palestinians who converted to islam? Historically, Hebrew predates arabic, which writings only appeared 300 BCE: so please tell us 'when' your great conversion of the Jews occured, and how come they lost an established writing and language - did they write in arabic of their conversion? You are promoting nothing else than a genocide of a people here, with justifications which are false and immoral.

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....
Unidentifed peoples lived in northern Syria before 4500 B.C.. However, the first knon settlers in Syria were Semites who probably arrived about 3500 B.C.

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Arabs arived in 638 B.CE. and they clearly arent the major bloodline among Syrians.

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Not so. Arabs arrived 500 BCE; Islam arrived some 1500 years ago.

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Historically "Syrian" (for reasons I will cover later) has-for 2000 years- refered not just to the peoples of modern day "Syria" but also Palestine, Lebanon and also Jordan.

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IamJoseph and other dispensationalists surely dont know this, but U.S. Courts have been forced to make dozens of decisions which prove that syrians are not Arabs but are infact largely descendant of Jew's!

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How can I know it! The Roman archives, the Jewish archives, The Christian archives, and all history outside of Islamic editions, says Rome invaded and conquered Judea and Israel - not Syria!

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As well as the U.S. congress.
Here is a link detailing the history of legal decisions involved...

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(the issue centered around our racist immigration laws which discriminated against non-whites , thus it became an issue what ones ancestry was among people who were non-European)

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http://www.aaiusa.org/foundation/355/not-quite-white

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(snip from above link)
Smilar case occured in subsequent years, each resulting in the ultimate granting of the Syrian petition, until 1914 when a Judge in South Carolina reopened the wound of ineligibility.In this case , the judge ruled ... Syrians ... were not "that particular free white person to whom the act of Congress (1790) had donated the privilege of citizenship" .... Once again the nascent Syrian institutions ... provided lengthy arguments, both historical and cultural ... which was refuted by the Judge who clung to ... "any mixture of blood" disqualified one from the white race. The case was appealed in 1915 which time the court accepted the findings of the Dillingham Report of the Immigration Commission that physically the modern Syrians are of mixed Syrian , Arabian, and even Jewish blood

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'1790'! Wow. Slavery was in full force then. Most in Arabia, where it originally comes from. The OT shows how ancient Egypt made a career out of enslaving peoples, with no rights whatsoever. That was changed by majestic laws, which muslims call 'distorted'.

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Whew!

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Those "majestic laws" sure make you sick, but the clsoe examanation of cultural ancestry in thousands of hours of razor-sharp examanation INDIRECTLY PROVE THAT SYRIANS ARE PART JEWISH.

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Aha. And all jews today are european and invading arab lands?

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(The larger issue was whether Syrians were Arab, Asian, or "white" and being part-Jewish wasnt the larger issue but the Jewish ancestry helped their case because Jews were considered/judged "white" already)

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The larger issue seems to be the negation of Israel - which is in violation of your precious UN!

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Remember that "Syrians" included Palestinians.

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And by subsequence - the propping of a clear falsehood. Outside of the last few decades, Palestinians were Jews. And this was a derogotary name for them, and not worth aspiring to. But you think it will get you a new state at the expense of Israel - this was Arafat's premise, and that the Jewish temple was a myth and Palestinians are millions of years old. Jesus was a palestinian, and Moses was a Muslim. 9/11 is a zionist plot. Lets end this charade. I'm not here to insult anyone - least of all truth and history. You seem to be doing that by grotesque falsehoods intended to negate a people, a nation, a religion, a country and history - because you care for the Sufferin' Pretend Pals! I say - at least the nazis were honest about it.

wait, what? no. you're possibly being confused by the fact that after the jewish rebellion circa 70ad, when the romans burned down the second temple, the area began to be called "palestine." the roman empire did this as an insult to the jews.see, the word we're really talking about here is palushtim, which in your bible is probably rendered "philistines" -- in general the heathen peoples of the surrounding nations, but in specific the people on the west coast of the levantine region, just outside the kingdom of judah (modern gaza). now, i'm not saying these are ethnically or genetically the same people. they might be, they might not be; i don't know.but the romans stopped calling judea "judea" after the rebellion, and gave it the name of the jews enemies, calling it "philistia" or "palestine." the term stuck until the 1940's, so the people that were there before the establishment of the modern state of israel were "palestinians" regardless of cultural heritage.but jews were jews. as far as we can tell, they've always been in the area, and the biblical philistines are a separate cultural group. modern palestinians before 1948 almost certainly included jews -- but since the creation of a "homeland" for the jews, pretty much all of the jewish people in the area at the time began identifying themselves as "israelis."it should also be noted that israel includes arabic people, too. arabic is an official language in israel, and there are many muslim holy sites. there are jewish people that live in palestine, but it's mostly the result of shifting borders and people not liking relocation -- and they generally do not call themselves as "palestinian."edit: because until 1948, the area was called "palestine." the newspaper change its name to "the jerusalem post" in 1950, shortly after the establishment of the state of israel.Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.

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What he says has little to nothing to do with anything people say to him.Nothing he said even remotely addresses a single issue I raised.You can tell him something about history and he will rant about Coke and Pepsi and then put words in your mouth.Ive never seen anybody simply ignore 100% of everything a person says.And Ive seen some serious retards in my internet days too.Actually, there might be 1 other like Joseph that I have seen.Amazing the both were fundamentalists. (I dont entirely subscribe to the view that all idiots are fundamentalists though, but this IS something I must take note of).I dont even think I will respond to him anymore, because he simply wont consider a single fact.(Im realy really shocked at this-honestly damn it he ignored 100% and used my name/posts as a pure straw man)(stll shocked)I suppose I should just comfort myself and my hopes for humanity by assuring myself that this guy is only 1 in 10,000 in his mental-limitations.I honestly fear that im way to optimistic.His last post was the first one where he ignored a full 100% of the content. (and I have been shocked when he ignored 95%-98%)

yes, i've talked to IAJ before.

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wait, what? no. you're possibly being confused by the fact that after the jewish rebellion circa 70ad, when the romans burned down the second temple, the area began to be called "palestine." the roman empire did this as an insult to the jews.

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see, the word we're really talking about here is palushtim,

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Your post makes more sense to me. My understanding is, the term palushtim is an arabic plural for Philistine, then anglosized as Palestine/palestinian. And that Romans naming this name, as well as one for Jerusalem, was subsequent to its war with Israel, making the differentials about state and peoples transcended by its causative factor: one can rename a country w/o requiring a motive - but one cannot do the same when having a motive for that renaming is omitted.The overiding factor here is, this cannot be used as a negation of Israel being the sovereign nation of a people, and posit a fictional history about palestinians owning this land, and jews are now muslim palestinians, and thus all Israelis are invaders of arab lands: this is bollox. Israel has never invaded or stolen anyone's lands ever - and was re-established legally before the nations - more legally than any Arab state, and all Islamic states voted at this UN Motion.One must ask here, why there is no UN Reso against the arabs for invading Israel - 5 times - declaring genocide? Potentially, this was the worst violation in the UN's history. If Israel is negated - so would all the arab states carved out by Briton. Here, at least israel's history is not based on oil borders, which is being negated by Nimrod: not a single reference to Israel as the only sovereign owner of this land - instead it is Palestinian - a genocidal premise hiding behind we do not hate Jews and equality, then charging the Muslim gnocidal goal on the targeted victims!

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because until 1948, the area was called "palestine." the newspaper change its name to "the jerusalem post" in 1950, shortly after the establishment of the state of israel.

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Fine. But it also means, prior to Israel - the jews were called palestinians - with historical veracity. While there were arabs living in this land alongside jews prior to Israel's re-establishment - this is not a reason of sovereign or historical claim; technically, even Jordan is a corruption for oil - and that this new state which never existed before - is in violation of the only condition of its creation: to house the arabs of palestine - means it should be aboloshed and the balfour restored if this violation is continued. The Arabs get away with it due to blackmail, corruption of the EU & UN, by being given 57 votes at the UN, and by cowardice and antisemitism.There was never a sovereign state called palestine - it was an area with no official designation. The creation of jordan, which is 80% of what was Palestine, was to allow a 2-state scenario, one for the Arabs living in Palestine [the document correctly never mentioned muslim palestinians - a fiction], and one for the jews. The demand of another state in what is left of palestine, and the describing this as a 2-state, is a grotesque falsehood, derived by immoral corruption. Its a deathly 3-state. I don't want to go political here, but this is also an historic document, known to all the Arab muslims in the middle-east:'IT WILL BE AN HISTORIC COMPROMISE FOR TWO STATES IN PALESTINE - ONE FOR THE JEWS AND ONE FOR THE ARABS' - Churchill.JEWS ARE IN PALESTINE BY THEIR RIGHTS - NOT THEIR SUFFERINGS' - Churchill.Technically, Kashmir should be deemed an Indian state forever, and if the terrorism does not cease there - then both Pakistan and Bangladesh should revert back as part of the Indian sub-continent. Equally, if terrorism does not cease in palestine and the M/E, then Jordan must be dismantled and this land be reverted as originally mandated - part of the jewish state. In any case, the entire west bank was part of Israel historically - which includes Hebron and all of Jerusalem, and this extended upto Mount Nebo in today's Jordan. Anyone can read this in historical writings, which is more than later theology: the earliest description of mount Nebo is in Dueteronomy, which marks Moses last stand, and is described as a vantage hill with a panoramic vista of all of Palestine. It is a popular resort area today for the same reason - its breathtaking views across Palestine, upto the Med sea. There were no Palestinians at this time - and Jordan was Moab, from Nebo and beyond. The book of Ruth displays this history in great detail; Ruth was the great, grand mother of King David. While it cannot be proven any writings are the word of God - there is no question these writings are historical.

What part of Nimrod's post did I 'ignore' - and which part of my post was not connected with his previous post: I actually quoted every sentence from his post in response.- bemused!