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Author Topic:   Is the bible the word of God or men?
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2214 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 271 of 309 (468880)
06-02-2008 2:57 AM


Is the bible the word of God or men?
Why is this a legitimate question, and where/who says their scripture is not written by a man? With the OT, which has the most numerous prophetic writings, all are described as written by their authors, including the 5 books of Moses. With regard any mystery which prevails here, it would apply to being inspired, not written by God.

IMHO, this mystery is well seen in the 5 books of Moses, by virtue of its references to a historicity which dates some 3000 years before its purported writing dates. I mean here, if the OT was written by Moses 3,500 years, it has mysterious elements in its descriptions of dates, names and other historically depicted events and scenarios, which could not be recalled or copied from elsewhere. That much of this pre-history is verifiable and authenticated by scientific observations [archeology] is what constitutes the mystery.

The difference between the OT and other scriptures, is that the OT details are not limited to its contemporary beliefs and pholosophical depictions, but that the OT contains 1000s of historical specs and stats pervasive in its verses, related to a space-time 3000 years predating its writings dates. It begs the Q how was this performed?

E.g. Genesis contains volumous pages of names of generations, with offsprings, their dod's, dob's and addresses - and these names have been proven as authentic - names being the primal means of scientific datings. It seems highly unlikely these could come from a human mind. It is very improbable even in this advanced computerized age, for anyone to recall or determine just five generations of ancestral names. This phenomenon is not seen in any other writings, including the early Greek, Indian Bagwatgita, and definitely not seen in the NT or Quran. From this pov, there is credence this scripture is mysterious.


Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Brian, posted 06-02-2008 11:34 AM IamJoseph has responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 3505 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 272 of 309 (468914)
06-02-2008 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by IamJoseph
06-02-2008 2:57 AM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
all are described as written by their authors, including the 5 books of Moses.

But none of these 5 books claim to be written by Moses.

I mean here, if the OT was written by Moses 3,500 years, it has mysterious elements in its descriptions of dates, names and other historically depicted events and scenarios, which could not be recalled or copied from elsewhere. That much of this pre-history is verifiable and authenticated by scientific observations [archeology] is what constitutes the mystery.

However, not a single person or event in the first five books has been verified, and almost all 'historical' events have been shown to be fictional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by IamJoseph, posted 06-02-2008 2:57 AM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by IamJoseph, posted 06-02-2008 9:55 PM Brian has responded

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2214 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 273 of 309 (469009)
06-02-2008 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Brian
06-02-2008 11:34 AM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
quote:
But none of these 5 books claim to be written by Moses.

That Moses wrote, via inspired dictation, is in the OT texts itself. The same goes for all 55 prophetic authors. You proclaim as if you know or had some new proof - you do not. Only the first two of the 10 C's are mentioned as being delivered via direct audio transmission to over 3 million people simultainiously, and this was stopped after the people implored Moses to cease the voice, fearing their souls were about to leave them to cling to the source.

I suspect, controversially, this is where alphabetical writings emerged, whereby image writings [a violation of the 2nd C] was transformed into abstract writings. I know most links claim phoenecian and canaanite writings immediately preceded the Hebrew, but there are no canaanite books, and the OT claims the Hebrews entered that land with the 5 books already in hand. Likewise, the first phoenecian alphabetical book, which resembles early Hebrew, dates to 850 BCE [The Tel Dan relic]. The world does not want to see these factors as truth - is the truth.

quote:

However, not a single person or event in the first five books has been verified, and almost all 'historical' events have been shown to be fictional.


The nation of Israel is verified in a 3200+ stellar from ancient Egyptian, now in a french museum - constituting a cross-nation contemporary proof; this name first appears in the book of Exodus. The claim of fiction was also applied to King David by so-called scholars - but they have never recovered from shame following the House of David discovery 15 years ago, which proved David as an historical figure, who wrote the psalms 3000 years ago, mentions Moses numerously, and which writings alligns fully with the OT narratives.

David lived a mere 250 years from Moses, and his writings are totally verifiable as historical and contemporary, mentioning nnumerous wars, kings and nations. Proof of david's son Solomon is also now verified, as is the Temple he built, and the follow-up Kings who had wars with Assyria, Moab and Babylon. This is followed by 55 prophetic books, some 70 years apart, all of which alligns with the OT narratives, constituting a verifiable historical thread as no other writings in existence.

Moses is not a proven figure, and the texts itself says his burial place will never be found, in a sense vindicating the texts. Moses is not mentioned in egyptian writings, because all scholars agree, the pharoahs were notorious of erasing any negativity as each Pharoah ascended - this syndrome is clearly seen emulated in Arabia's media today. But I can list a 1000 stats contained in the OT texts which are historical and contemporary, and which were impossible to have been made up later on.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Brian, posted 06-02-2008 11:34 AM Brian has responded

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 Message 276 by Brian, posted 06-03-2008 8:13 AM IamJoseph has responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 274 of 309 (469010)
06-02-2008 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by IamJoseph
06-02-2008 9:55 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
You're doing good, IamJoseph. We're fortunate to have you aboard doing your homework on this. :cool:


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by IamJoseph, posted 06-02-2008 9:55 PM IamJoseph has not yet responded

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2214 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 275 of 309 (469027)
06-03-2008 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by IamJoseph
06-02-2008 9:55 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
quote:
The nation of Israel is verified in a 3200+ stellar from ancient Egyptian, now in a french museum - constituting a cross-nation contemporary proof; this name first appears in the book of Exodus.

My error. That should be the book of Genesis ['Your name shall no more be called Jacob but Israel'/Gen].


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by IamJoseph, posted 06-02-2008 9:55 PM IamJoseph has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Brian, posted 06-03-2008 8:22 AM IamJoseph has not yet responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 3505 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 276 of 309 (469043)
06-03-2008 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by IamJoseph
06-02-2008 9:55 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
That Moses wrote, via inspired dictation, is in the OT texts itself.

Where? Where in the first five books is the claim that Moses wrote them?

The same goes for all 55 prophetic authors.

Every single OT book is anonymous, we do not know who wrote a single one, this is basic beginners Bible study.

You proclaim as if you know or had some new proof - you do not.

The proof is in the texts themselves. Nowhere in the Pentateuch is it stated that Moses wrote the first five books, in fact, it is impossible for him to have done so since events after Moses died are recorded, plus the huge amount of anachronisms in the text, and the constant third person narration completely undermines this false position you cling to.

Only the first two of the 10 C's are mentioned as being delivered via direct audio transmission to over 3 million people simultainiously,

Apart from the ridiculousness of 470 people growing in to 3 million, which has been demonstrated beyond all doubt to be untrue, there are doubts over whether the Bible claims this number of people were involved.

and this was stopped after the people implored Moses to cease the voice, fearing their souls were about to leave them to cling to the source.

We all know the fairytales, but my claim was that NOTHING in the first five books has been verified, this is a fact.

The nation of Israel is verified in a 3200+ stellar from ancient Egyptian, now in a french museum - constituting a cross-nation contemporary proof; this name first appears in the book of Exodus.

Apart from the fact that the Merneptah Stele is outside the date range for the first 5 books, there are no links AT ALL that verify that the Israel mentioned in the Stele is the same one that is mentioned in the Pentateuch. The Stele itself gives no information that verifies anything mentioned in the OT. Here is another archaeological fact, the area allocated to ‘Israel’ in the Stele (if the ring cycle is correct) has yielded NOTHING at all that can be described as uniquely ‘Israelite’, quite strange for a group of 3 million to be able to hide as well as that.

The thing is, according to the Bible, Israel should have been settled in Canaan with all the Canaanites slaughtered and gone, and the Stele just negates this. Plus the ‘Israel’ (if that’s what it says), in the Stele is not a land but a people, and certainly not 3 million.

The claim of fiction was also applied to King David by so-called scholars

Well, we are discussing my claim about the first five books, which David’s existence or non-existence is not covered by.

- but they have never recovered from shame following the House of David discovery 15 years ago, which proved David as an historical figure, who wrote the psalms 3000 years ago, mentions Moses numerously, and which writings alligns fully with the OT narratives.

The Tel Dan Stele does NOT verify that David was an historical figure, there is still great controversies over almost everything to do with the Stele, ranging from the extremely unusual action of Biran to piece the 3 fragments together before any other scholars had a chance to examine them, this is just not the way things are done in archaeology. We don’t even know if the fragments are pieced together properly (a fact that Biran and Naveh both agree with), plus the bytdwd is more than likely a place name rather than a dynasty, and even if it was a dynasty it doesn’t PROVE whether it was a factional dynasty or not. The alleged names of the Israelite and Judean kings are NOT even on the inscription.

David lived a mere 250 years from Moses,

Again I have pointed out your flawed research here in another thread where you conceded that there are differing time scales involved.

and his writings are totally verifiable as historical and contemporary, mentioning nnumerous wars, kings and nations.

We do not have anything that David wrote (or Moses for that matter), so this claim is complete hogwash whether applied to David or Moses.

Proof of david's son Solomon is also now verified, as is the Temple he built, and the follow-up Kings who had wars with Assyria, Moab and Babylon.

We do not have any remains of Solomon’s Temple, or evidence that Solomon existed.

This is followed by 55 prophetic books, some 70 years apart, all of which alligns with the OT narratives, constituting a verifiable historical thread as no other writings in existence.

Since authors copied each other’s writings, and books were selected for ‘harmony’, then we should expect some cohesion. But to say anything in the first five books has been verified is either ignorance or outright lying.

Moses is not a proven figure, and the texts itself says his burial place will never be found, in a sense vindicating the texts.

More likely indicating him as a fictional literary character.

Moses is not mentioned in egyptian writings,

Indicating that Moses was a fictional literary character.

because all scholars agree,

No they don’t.

the pharoahs were notorious of erasing any negativity as each Pharoah ascended –

How do you know there was any negativity if it had been erased?
Of course we do have recorded Egyptian defeats. The Hyksos infiltrating and ruling over almost all of Egypt is well recorded in Egyptian sources.

But I can list a 1000 stats contained in the OT texts which are historical and contemporary and which were impossible to have been made up later on.

My claim was regarding the first five books. The OT does get a little more accurate after the exile, which was probably when a great many myths were made up.

So, let’s keep it focussed, give me stats to support ONE single person or event mentioned in the Book of Genesis, and we will find out how amazing this evidence is. Be careful not to fall into the usual apologists trap of circular reasoning.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by IamJoseph, posted 06-02-2008 9:55 PM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by IamJoseph, posted 06-03-2008 10:20 AM Brian has responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 3505 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 277 of 309 (469044)
06-03-2008 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by IamJoseph
06-03-2008 2:48 AM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
That should be the book of Genesis ['Your name shall no more be called Jacob but Israel'/Gen].

That's IF the Israel of Merneptah is the same one as in the Book of Exodus. But, the name 'Israel' is not unique to the Bible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by IamJoseph, posted 06-03-2008 2:48 AM IamJoseph has not yet responded

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2214 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 278 of 309 (469054)
06-03-2008 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Brian
06-03-2008 8:13 AM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
quote:
Where? Where in the first five books is the claim that Moses wrote them?

Numerously. E.g:

quote:
Exodus 34/27 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Write thou these words, for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.'

And unlike any other writings, these are absolutely contemporary, historically verifiable stats, with specifics of names, distances and surrounds, as in aerial topography:

quote:
1 These are the words which Moses spoke unto all Israel beyond the Jordan; in the wilderness, in the Arabah, over against Suph, between Paran and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Di-zahab. 2 It is eleven days journey from Horeb unto Kadesh-barnea by the way of mount Seir.

Mount Nebo is today a popular tourist site, offering a vista of the entire landscape of the land, as depicted here:

quote:
1 And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho. And the LORD showed him all the land, even Gilead as far as Dan;

quote:
Every single OT book is anonymous, we do not know who wrote a single one, this is basic beginners Bible study.

David wrote all the psalms subscribed to him. The details in many psalms describing the valleys are percieved when one examines the house of David site, and looks from where the terrace would be, whereby that psalm even says where it was written. The psalms scrolls did not contain a signature, if that is what you are referring to, but the contents speak for themselves more accurately than some one later signing them. David's scribes, responsible for archiving the king's writings and orders, would have applied a notation, including an authentic, historical description noting the event and time. Here, David had battles with his son, also recorded in the book of kings, which details David's victory over the original philistines - there is no record of the philistines after this date. The philistines had an underground city with tunnels and catacombs, in today's Gaza - these tunnels still exist today. Such stats are far more telling than a signature:

quote:
Psalm 3/1 A Psalm of David, when he fled from Absalom his son.

quote:
Apart from the ridiculousness of 470 people growing in to 3 million, which has been demonstrated beyond all doubt to be untrue, there are doubts over whether the Bible claims this number of people were involved.

I don't think so. You mentioned no time period - it is 400 years. When the hebrews left egypt, we have the world's first scientific cencus conducted, with age, tribe, families and gender sub-totals, which total is 3 million. What is ridiculous about it, and what motive to expand these numbers - it is still a small nation in relation to the others?

quote:
We all know the fairytales, but my claim was that NOTHING in the first five books has been verified, this is a fact.

The reverse is the case. Nothing has been disproven, when millions of stats are seen pervasive in the verses. Almost 70% has been scientifically verified, and not a week passes without a new discovery affirming the OT narratives. There is no document in geo-history which can say the same. What's up doc?

quote:
Apart from the fact that the Merneptah Stele is outside the date range for the first 5 books, there are no links AT ALL that verify that the Israel mentioned in the Stele is the same one that is mentioned in the Pentateuch. The Stele itself gives no information that verifies anything mentioned in the OT. Here is another archaeological fact, the area allocated to ‘Israel’ in the Stele (if the ring cycle is correct) has yielded NOTHING at all that can be described as uniquely ‘Israelite’, quite strange for a group of 3 million to be able to hide as well as that.

The thing is, according to the Bible, Israel should have been settled in Canaan with all the Canaanites slaughtered and gone, and the Stele just negates this. Plus the ‘Israel’ (if that’s what it says), in the Stele is not a land but a people, and certainly not 3 million.


Wrong on all counts. The stelle is from a subsequent pharoah, not the one which confronted Moses. Israel is a nation, which works contextually as a country and a people. Canaan was a satelite state of egypt, and that nation was not totally destroyed: two of the eight canaanite kingdoms sided with Joshua, and lived peaceably with the israelites. The war with canaan took 150 years to culminate, stretching throughout the period of judges, with numerous pther wars in between. Those who question the egyptian stelle come under the fringe - and these will always prevail. Today, the jerusalem temple and the holocaust - which occured only 70 years ago, are called as myths; Moses is called a muslim; jews are not jews; jesus is a palestinian - an historical impossibility since this name was only dumped on Judea 40 years after JC died. You starting to make fringe very real, so suit yourself.

quote:
The Tel Dan Stele does NOT verify that David was an historical figure, there is still great controversies

No, there is not 'great' controversy, just lunatic fringe. The tel dan offers 100% historical names of people, kings, wars and nations; its datings is affirmed by almost every archeologist and scholar of history.

quote:
Since authors copied each other’s writings,

There were no 'authors' in ancient times. Writing a scroll was a massive, expensive project exclusive to very few. Mighty Egypt, persia and Greece had no such developed acumen; the entire european continent, including Britain and Russia - had no writings till recently; arabic emerged only in 400 CE. What authors?

quote:
We do not have any remains of Solomon’s Temple, or evidence that Solomon existed.

Of course, there are disputers of everything, but nowhere more so than when it comes to Israel:

quote:

http://graal.co.uk/houseofdavid.html

The House Of David Inscription
For some inexplicable reason, it has become fashionable in a current genre of Bible assailing literature for writers to make uncorroborated statements concerning a supposed lack of Old Testament evidence in certain respects. Among these assaults are those which claim there are no archaeological references concerning the Judah Kings of the Royal House of David (c. 1008-586 BC) and the Jerusalem Temple of King David's son Jedidiah - better known as King Solomon.

Such statements are completely untrue and, in respect of the House of David and the Temple of Yahweh, it is worth citing some archaeological examples contemporary with the biblical period in question.

In 1993 a discovery was made at Tel Dan (at the foot of Mount Hermon) which became the most significant artifact in the modern State of Israel. It is now regarded as a national treasure since it proves, irrespective of the Bible, that the House of David was an historic reality.

Excavations began at Tel Dan, Northern Israel, in 1966 under the direction of archaeologist Avrham Biran. After a few years of digging, a monumental mud-brick gate was unearthed, with an arch constructed by the Canaanites in around 1850 BC - long before the Israelites arrived in the region. In those times the Dan location was called Leshem (Joshua 19:47) or Laish (Judges 18:27). The Canaanite Gate is now a conservation project of the Israeli Antiquities Authority.

Also revealed, before cessation of the 33-year dig in 1999, were the city walls, an Israelite sanctuary, sacred pillars, a tomb and various artifacts.

The Canaanite Gate

Among the city ruins, in front of the Gate were found the remnants of a large basalt stele - the largest fragment of which is 32 x 22 cm (12.5 x 8.75 inches). On this, thirteen lines of Aramaic script are partially preserved from around 825 BC, soon after the time of King Ahab of Israel and David's lineal descendant, King Jehosaphat of Judah.

The inscription was created by King Hazael of Aram-Damascus in about 825 BC, and it relates to his father, Hadad II, being victorious in battle against Jehosaphat (c. 860 BC). The most important aspect of the text, however, is that it specifically relates to Hadad defeating the "foot soldiers, charioteers and horsemen of the King of the House of David".

The much prized Tel Dan Inscription now resides in the Israel Museum, Jerusalem.

The House of David Inscription

The Moabite Stone

Another kingly stele boasting of conflict with the House of David is the Moabite Stone from about 860 BC. This 42 by 24 inch black basalt monument (107 x 61 cms) was discovered in 1868 at Dhiban, 20 miles east of the Dead Sea (across from En-gedi) and is now housed in The Louvre Museum, Paris. As reported in Time Magazine, December 1995, it is the most extensive inscription ever recovered from ancient Palestine.

The Moabite Stone contains 36 lines of Phoenician script which relate to the rebellion of King Mesha of Moab against King Jehoram of Israel and King Jehosaphat of Judah. This battle is recounted in the Old Testament 2-Kings 3:5-27.

The Mesha Stele of Moab

Discovered by the German missionary, F.A. Klein, the Moabite Stone caused another battle when the Berlin Museum expressed an interest in removing it to the West. The Jewish Encyclopedia relates that, on hearing of this, local Arabs heaved it out of the earth, lit fires around it and doused it with cold water so that it fragmented. Mediation was subsequently conducted by the French Consulate in Jerusalem, whose conservators restored the artifact, while offering enough money to purchase the House of David Moabite Stone and placate the inhabitants of Dhiban.

House of the Lord

The Jerusalem Temple of David's son, King Solomon, was something of an enigma until the 1970s. Prior to that, no physical evidence had been discovered in respect of the Temple itself - the House of Yahweh or House of the Lord, as it was more correctly called (1-Kings 3:1, 6:1).

The Old Testament book of 1-Kings 6:2-38 gives details of the construction, which was demolished by Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon 400 years later in 586 BC. A new, larger Temple was built on the same site by Prince Zerubbabel of Jerusalem from 535 BC, and this was later extended by the Seleucid Kings, the Hasmonaeans, and finally by King Herod the Great in the 1st century BC.

In his 1st-century Antiquities of the Jews, Flavius Josephus described Jerusalem in the Gospel era, stating that the Herodian Temple was "incredible". Set within a complex of over 35 acres, where the El-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock now stand, it was the most magnificent construction of the era - far bigger than the Acropolis in Athens. However, the mighty edifice was demolished by the Roman legions of General Titus in AD 70.

Beneath King Solomon's Temple
Painted on site, 1870, for the London Illustrated News
Archaeologists, working from the middle 1800s, established the foundations of the second and third Temples (those of Zerubbabel and Herod), but it was not until 1973 that a concerted attempt was made to reveal the first House of the Lord - the Temple of King Solomon. The archaeological project was led by Prof. Benjamin Mazar of the Hebrew University, with field architect Dr. Leen Ritmeyer, who wrote up the account for the Biblical Archaeology Society.

With the aid of records from the Greek historian, Strabo (64 BC - AD 21), the team worked on site for five years, making many new discoveries, among which (at the lowest course level) were the original footings of King Solomon's Temple, with masonry quite different to that of the later periods. Also, to their astonishment, in the floor of the Holy of Holies above was the carved rectangular depression (48 inches by 31 inches), where the Ark of the Covenant once stood (1-Kings 8:6).

It transpired that the Solomonid footings had actually been logged some time previously by the Palestine Exploration Fund, but the information had not become widely known. It was known however that, in the tunnels beneath, a British military expedition had made a significant discovery in 1894. There, in the labyrinthine complex of arched corridors and cisterns, they discovered a 12th-century Templar cross, a broken Templar sword and other related artifacts. These were remnants from the early 1100s, when the Knights Templars excavated for the Ark and the secreted treasures of Jerusalem.

Ostracons and the Pomegranate

There are a few archaeologically discovered artifacts from the first Temple's operative era which make specific reference to Solomon's House of the Lord. One of these is known as the Temple Ostracon, which resides in the Israel Museum, Jerusalem. This pottery shard from about 800 BC (in the Jerusalem reign of King Joash of Judah) clearly mentions, in old Hebrew, the Temple of the 'Bayit Yahweh' - the Jerusalem House of the Lord.

House of the Lord Inscription

Another ostracon referenced by the Biblical Archaeology Review (November/December 1997) is a tax receipt written on a clay tablet in respect of a subscription of 3 shekels to the House of the Lord. It comes from much the same period as the Temple Ostracon, when the Jewish people were obliged to contribute towards the House of Yahweh's infrastructure by way of a Temple tax.

A particularly interesting artifact from the Solomon Temple reign of King Uzziah of Judah, c. 750 BC, is a small ivory pomegranate - vase shaped with a long neck and petals. Around its shoulder, in an early Hebrew script, is inscribed "Sacred donation for the priests of the House of the Lord ". Like the Temple Ostracon and the David Tablet, this item is also held at the Israel Museum.

The Temple Pomegranate

The Joash Tablet

Recently, the press and media have been discussing another inscribed tablet that was discovered in the summer of 2000 at Jerusalem's Temple Mount. The find was made by Islamic Trust renovators of the El-Aqsa mosque which occupies part of the Haram el Sharif (Noble Sanctuary) site, and the tablet is know held by an Israeli collector.

Partially broken, the Arkosic Dead Sea sandstone tablet measures 31 x 24 x 7 cms, and carries 15 lines of text written in ancient Hebrew with elements of Aramaic and old Phoenician. It describes repairs to Solomon's Temple as ordered by Solomon's descendant, King Joash of Judah in the 9th century BC.

Joash (Jehoash) reigned about 839-799 BC and, in accord with this, carbon-14 dating by Israel's Geological Institute, under Shimon Ilani, has authenticated the inscription as being around 2,800 years old. The Institute's director, Amos Bean, reported that they had discovered flecks of gold burnt into the stone, indicating that it was probably in the Temple when the building was destroyed by invading Babylonians in about 586 BC.

In line with the Bible text of 2-Kings 12:1-6 and 11-17, the tablet describes how the King instructed the priests to "take holy money … to buy quarry stones and timber and copper and labour to carry out the duty with faith."

The Joash Tablet

The Vessel and the Vine

In the header graphic of this page are two Jerusalem coins from the distant BC years - one which bears a chalice, and the other a bunch of grapes.

From around 3500 BC, a chalice (or ceremonial cup) was the hereditary symbol of the Mesopotamian "Gra-al" - the royal bloodline of the ancient kings and queens. In subsequent Israelite times, the descending family line (which became the dynasty of the House of David) was classified as The Vine. Psalm 80:8 reads, 'Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it'. In the New Testament Gospel of John 15:1 Jesus states, "I am the true vine".

Hence it was that, the concept of the Grail (Gra-al) bloodline was romantically symbolized as the Vessel (female) and the Vine (male). The fruit of the vine is the grape - and from the grape comes wine. In this respect, the symbolic elements of the chalice and the vine coincide, and this tradition sits at the very heart of the Eucharist (Holy Communion) sacrament.

From Mesopotamian and Israelite foundations the Grail customs moved westwards into both Pagan and Christian lore, but notwithstanding this it is interesting to note that following the latter-day reinstatement of the State of Israel in 1948, these old emblems of the Royal House of Judah - the dynasty of David and Solomon - were brought back into play on newly introduced coins that replicated their originals in times long before.


quote:

http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/the-house-of-david-inscription-faq.htm

The House of David Inscription

The House of David Inscription (also known as the “Tel Dan Inscription”) was discovered in 1994 during excavations at the ancient city of Dan. It is considered by many to be the first reference to the "House of David" discovered outside the biblical text.

The House of David Inscription appears to be a fragment of a victory monument erected by a king of Damascus (Aram) during the 9th century BC, some 250 years after King David’s reign. The fragment specifically mentions victories over a “king of Israel” (probably Joram) and a king of the “House of David” (probably Ahaziah).
The House of David Inscription (Tel Dan Inscription) currently resides in the Israel Museum, Jerusalem.



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 Message 276 by Brian, posted 06-03-2008 8:13 AM Brian has responded

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 Message 285 by Brian, posted 06-05-2008 5:25 PM IamJoseph has responded

deerbreh
Member (Idle past 1438 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 279 of 309 (469425)
06-05-2008 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by IamJoseph
06-03-2008 10:20 AM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
quote:
David wrote all the psalms subscribed to him. The details in many psalms describing the valleys are percieved when one examines the house of David site, and looks from where the terrace would be, whereby that psalm even says where it was written. The psalms scrolls did not contain a signature, if that is what you are referring to, but the contents speak for themselves more accurately than some one later signing them. David's scribes, responsible for archiving the king's writings and orders, would have applied a notation, including an authentic, historical description noting the event and time. Here, David had battles with his son, also recorded in the book of kings, which details David's victory over the original philistines - there is no record of the philistines after this date. The philistines had an underground city with tunnels and catacombs, in today's Gaza - these tunnels still exist today. Such stats are far more telling than a signature:

Do we even have incontrovertible evidence that THE "King David" (as recorded in the Bible) actually existed? And no I do not consider the "House of David Inscription" to be that evidence. There may have indeed have been a King David of Israel - likely there was at the least an ancient leader of a confederation of Israeli tribes named David - but that is not the same as saying there was a slingshot-wielding shepherd boy named David who became the King of Israel and wrote the Psalms. After all, knowledge of the geography of a particular area is not limited to that mythical King David purported to have lived there - come on, let's use a little basic logic here. And what would have prevented an unscrupulous unknown scribe from using the good King David's name to gain some acclaim for his scribblings after David's time had passed?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by IamJoseph, posted 06-03-2008 10:20 AM IamJoseph has not yet responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 3505 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 280 of 309 (469433)
06-05-2008 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by IamJoseph
06-03-2008 10:20 AM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
Numerously. E.g:
quote:
Exodus 34/27 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Write thou these words, for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.'

That’s a reference to the tablets containing the Ten Commandments, if you read on you will place your claim in context.

Exodus 34:28-29:

Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments. When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the LORD.

It claims that Moses wrote the Ten Commandments down on two tablets, it doesn’t say he wrote the first five books of the Tanakh, or anything else outside of the Ten Commandments. Nowhere in the Torah is there any hint at all that the books themselves were written by Moses. Moses copying the commandments on to tablets is not a reference to Moses writing anything that appears in the Torah.

Tell me, did Moses write this… Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone. The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over.

How did Moses know that the Israelites grieved thirty days?

How about this?

Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders the LORD sent him to do in Egypt—to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel.

How long AFTER Moses died must this passage have been written? It must have been a very long time since we are told in Deut.34:6 that He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.

To what day? A week later, a year, ten years? None of these is a very impressive claim. However, if it is a few hundred years or even a thousand, then that is a bit more impressive.

How could Moses write this…

Genesis 36:31 These were the kings who reigned in Edom before any Israelite king reigned

He quite simply couldn’t have.

Or..

Exodus 13:17 When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them on the road through the Philistine country, though that was shorter. For God said, "If they face war, they might change their minds and return to Egypt."

Philistines hundreds of years before there were Philistines in the region!

What about this howler…

Numbers 12:3 Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth

The most humble man in the world brags about being humble!

Then there is the very famous Dan anachronism. Mentioned in Genesis 14:14 alongside Abram the city of Dan wasn’t named Dan until Judges 18:27-29

Then they took what Micah had made, and his priest, and went on to Laish, against a peaceful and unsuspecting people. They attacked them with the sword and burned down their city. There was no one to rescue them because they lived a long way from Sidon and had no relationship with anyone else. The city was in a valley near Beth Rehob.
The Danites rebuilt the city and settled there. They named it Dan after their forefather Dan, who was born to Israel—though the city used to be called Laish.

I could go on and on and on, but the point is proven, the claim that Moses wrote the Torah is untenable.

And unlike any other writings, these are absolutely contemporary, historically verifiable stats, with specifics of names, distances and surrounds, as in aerial topography:

Afraid not mate. The names of individuals and locations in the Pentateuch are a real nightmare for the inerrantist, with hardly a place known for certain. For example, look at Ex. 1:11, no one even knows for certain where these two cities are, or even what they were called. How many of the sites mentioned on the Exodus routes have been found for sure?

Mount Nebo is today a popular tourist site, offering a vista of the entire landscape of the land, as depicted here:
quote:

1 And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho. And the LORD showed him all the land, even Gilead as far as Dan;

You keep falling into the same trap as the fundy Xian ‘apologists’ do. You seem to think that because a site is mentioned that can be identified then that means that anything associated with that site automatically becomes true! Just because there is a Mount Nebo DOES not mean that Moses was anywhere near it, nor does it even mean that there ever was a Moses, you are back in the world of circular reasoning. What evidence do you have that the biblical ‘event’ concerning Moses at Nebo is true? Will I answer for you?

David wrote all the psalms subscribed to him.

You know this because? Some evidence would be nice.

More to follow when I decypher the rest of your post.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by IamJoseph, posted 06-03-2008 10:20 AM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 5:13 PM Brian has responded
 Message 282 by Force, posted 06-05-2008 5:19 PM Brian has not yet responded

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2214 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 281 of 309 (469455)
06-05-2008 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Brian
06-05-2008 3:40 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
quote:

Moses copying the commandments on to tablets is not a reference to Moses writing anything that appears in the Torah.


Yes it is. Try to copy and extend on Shakespear or Byron - it will soon be deemed a forgery. The OT is a greater prose, and a greater historical work, and would be far less likely to copy - seeing that writings in ancient times was a far greater indulgence, and when most people could not perform this task. You are in a state of unremedial denial. The Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and Romans - who conquered many nations and had extensive library archives, did not find anything in the OT as non-historical; there are numerous burial places of prophets in those countries [Ezekiel, Esther, Mordecai, King Ahab, etc], as well as their own writings {Babylon; Persia.

quote:
The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over.

How did Moses know that the Israelites grieved thirty days?


Duh! The final passage is epitaphical [what else - the text has already declared Moses has died!], written by Joshua, who was handed the next role, and who also is described as the writer of the book of Joshua - which contains, as with Moses' writings - contemporary descriptions not possible by another source. This does make it a non-disprovable factor. Saying you don't except it is hardly a disproof or even a responsa to this issue, and your arguements are bordering on blatant folly.

quote:
How about this?

Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders the LORD sent him to do in Egypt—to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel.

How long AFTER Moses died must this passage have been written? It must have been a very long time since we are told in Deut.34:6 that He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.

To what day? A week later, a year, ten years? None of these is a very impressive claim. However, if it is a few hundred years or even a thousand, then that is a bit more impressive.

How could Moses write this…

Genesis 36:31 These were the kings who reigned in Edom before any Israelite king reigned

He quite simply couldn’t have.


I recall exchanging many posts on this with you, and I won't do that again. Your grammatical premise is faulty, as shown in my first response, and as with the last response here in this post. Grammar, which was introduced in the OT, says one must take the most logical meaning - if you are told a writer is dead, and find a final concluding verse of description about him - it does NOT mean the dead person wrote it.

quote:
Or..

Exodus 13:17 When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them on the road through the Philistine country, though that was shorter. For God said, "If they face war, they might change their minds and return to Egypt."

Philistines hundreds of years before there were Philistines in the region!


Yes, the philistines entered Arabia shortly after Joseph landed in Egypt, but not when Abraham entered Canaan. Prior to the exodus with Moses, the Benjamite tribe tried to escape Egypt, travelling via the king's highway [coastal route], because then none ventured via the desert hinterlands. The benjamites were massacred by the philistines, who left their bones on the road as a Roman style warning to others attempting to come to Gaza - their underground city; Gaza was an easy take at that time, egypt being too involved elsewhere to attend the canaanite plight. The Israelites thus took another, longer route, so they would not witness this massacre of their kin and turn back. The philistines introduced iron in arabia, and no nation could conquer them, till David did 300 years later. So Ex 13/17 is a remarkable historical verse - the tunnels built by the philistines is still seen today. The philistines were contemporary to the Minoans.

quote:

What about this howler…

Numbers 12:3 Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.
The most humble man in the world brags about being humble!


Your howler. I note that Moses never claimed any power of himself, attributing everything to God throughout. He never proclaimed himself a king, and delegated power to tribaal heads and captains, making the laws the ruling instrument. He could have easily assumed pomp and power, even deityship, considering he conquered the greatest super power: but he did not. He was thus challenged by many other Israelites - signifying his humbleness. That this greatest of all 'humans' would not behold any power or merit for himself - is real 'humble', and the antithesis of bragging: compare Moses wth other scriptures' revered figures, who never gave the world .01% of what Moses did - and you can soon get a howler.

The issue of Moses taking dictations was already dealt with - even according to your own admission with the 10 C's. So at best, you are taking incidental stray verses, distoring them, omitting 1000s of other undeniable factors, and then making blanket conclusions. What a howler.

quote:

Afraid not mate. The names of individuals and locations in the Pentateuch are a real nightmare for the inerrantist, with hardly a place known for certain. For example, look at Ex. 1:11, no one even knows for certain where these two cities are, or even what they were called. How many of the sites mentioned on the Exodus routes have been found for sure?


Hm. So Rameses and Pithom are not contemporary and authentic egyptian names and cities, nor is Goshen? What about Ur - maybe the Mesopatamian nation copied this from the OT, seeing they still use this name today? Was Nimrod the first recorded king, and the Tigris the first recorded river? Which writings first said the Nile never runs dry - and why? Is Moses an ancient egyptian name - but not seen again in Egypt after the humulating Exodus? Is Hagar an egyptian name - as stated in the text?

quote:

You keep falling into the same trap as the fundy Xian ‘apologists’ do. You seem to think that because a site is mentioned that can be identified then that means that anything associated with that site automatically becomes true!


Correct. Validated, contemporary names, dates and events are better proof even than C14, which is not accurate. Incidently, 99% of archeology is based on 'names' first; second on writing style; third on cross-nation reportings.

quote:
Just because there is a Mount Nebo DOES not mean that Moses was anywhere near it, nor does it even mean that there ever was a Moses, you are back in the world of circular reasoning. What evidence do you have that the biblical ‘event’ concerning Moses at Nebo is true? Will I answer for you?

The validated text, which also contains 100s of other surrounding contemporary items. Moab [today's Jordan], and Ruth [a Moabite princess] was first introduced in the OT. The Mt Nebo account does not just give a panoramic vista of this entire land - this can be copied by anyone much later, but it also records other contemporary details. The entire genealogy of Ruth is recorded, down to her great grandson David, and then many centuries beyond that. Can you tell us who Alexandar's great, grand mother was - or any other figure even 1000 years ago?

quote:

David wrote all the psalms subscribed to him.

You know this because? Some evidence would be nice.


The descriptive, historically vindicated items in the psalms' verses is the evidence. The verse I gave gives the name of his rebelling son Absalom, the wars with numerous nations, including Assyria [Tel Dan] and the Philistines [which people do not exist after David's war with them]. Your arguements are not historical, but semantical - and also full of omissions and distortions to an unreasonable extremity.

Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Brian, posted 06-05-2008 3:40 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Brian, posted 06-05-2008 5:33 PM IamJoseph has responded
 Message 289 by Brian, posted 06-05-2008 5:50 PM IamJoseph has responded
 Message 290 by Brian, posted 06-05-2008 5:57 PM IamJoseph has responded

Force
Inactive Member


Message 282 of 309 (469457)
06-05-2008 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Brian
06-05-2008 3:40 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
Brian,

Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone. The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over.

Moses must have died from going 40 days and 40 nights with no bread or water... ROFLOL....

Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments. When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the LORD.


Thanks
To believe in "Force" is to believe in Love, Wisdom, Intelligence, Force, Agility, and Charm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Brian, posted 06-05-2008 3:40 PM Brian has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 5:22 PM Force has responded

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2214 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 283 of 309 (469459)
06-05-2008 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Force
06-05-2008 5:19 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
Miracles are not provable or disprovable. Historical factors are and should be. Mostly, the OT contains provable, historical stats.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Force, posted 06-05-2008 5:19 PM Force has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Force, posted 06-05-2008 5:23 PM IamJoseph has not yet responded

Force
Inactive Member


Message 284 of 309 (469460)
06-05-2008 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by IamJoseph
06-05-2008 5:22 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
IamJoseph,

you deal in a different reality my friend.... LOL... Can I come live with you? However, I will hate to admit this but historical factors are not provable because we can't learn about all of history due to the fact that it is history.

Edited by Force, : edit


Thanks
To believe in "Force" is to believe in Love, Wisdom, Intelligence, Force, Agility, and Charm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 5:22 PM IamJoseph has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Brian, posted 06-05-2008 5:28 PM Force has responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 3505 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 285 of 309 (469461)
06-05-2008 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by IamJoseph
06-03-2008 10:20 AM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
You claim that my statements here are ’Wrong on all counts.’, but I am not sure if you have read what I posted. Look closer at what I wrote:

Apart from the fact that the Merneptah Stele is outside the date range for the first 5 books, there are no links AT ALL that verify that the Israel mentioned in the Stele is the same one that is mentioned in the Pentateuch. The Stele itself gives no information that verifies anything mentioned in the OT. Here is another archaeological fact, the area allocated to ‘Israel’ in the Stele (if the ring cycle is correct) has yielded NOTHING at all that can be described as uniquely ‘Israelite’, quite strange for a group of 3 million to be able to hide as well as that.

The thing is, according to the Bible, Israel should have been settled in Canaan with all the Canaanites slaughtered and gone, and the Stele just negates this. Plus the ‘Israel’ (if that’s what it says), in the Stele is not a land but a people, and certainly not 3 million.

You start by saying: The stele is from a subsequent pharoah, not the one which confronted Moses.

Now, I have no idea where you imagine I said that it was the pharaoh who confronted Moses that the stele belonged to, since I specifically said the name of the pharaoh and said that it is outside the date range for the first 5 books!

Anyone involved in the ‘origins of Ancient Israel’ debate knows that the Merneptah Stele is the earliest mention of an Israel as a people outside of the Bible. The stele is dated to around 1205 BCE, long after the Bible claims that Moses was supposed to have lived. So your claim of ‘wrong on all counts is already refuted.

Then I state that there are no links to verify that the Israel mentioned on the stele is the same as the Israel of the Bible. This is a fact. If you have any proof that it is the same Israel then post the evidence, but I know you can’t because there is no external evidence to support Israel in Palestine at the time the stele represents. I dare say you will just claim that there is, as you are not too keen on posting any supporting evidence at all.

My next claim that the stele gives no information that verifies anything mentioned in the Bible is a fact as well. ALL that the stele states regarding Israel is this:

Israel is laid waste, his seed is not

So, tell me, what in the Bible does this information verify?

My final claim is that there is nothing in the archaeological record from Palestine at the time the Stele relates to that can be uniquely identified as ‘Israelite’. This is another unadulterated fact. You can disprove this claim by providing some material culture from the time and place that you can prove is uniquely Israelite, then you can collect your phd from any uni you choose.

So, it looks as if everything I have posted is correct, or so far it is, since you have disproved nothing, and all you offer is your uninformed opinion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by IamJoseph, posted 06-03-2008 10:20 AM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 10:51 PM Brian has not yet responded

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