The prophecy of Mystery Babylon covered in chapters 17 and 18 states no less than five times that this is about a specific city which would emerge to exist upon the earth. There is a city, only one on the planet which fits the description given in the text. No, I say, no other city on the entire planet fits the ticket for ALL the data given in these two chapters. Yes some cities have some of the characteristics, but only one has them all. Name that city.
Lets have a look at the data given beginning with chapter 17: 1. Sits on "many waters" (verse 1) which are interpreted in verse 15 as peoples, nations and tongues. So this city owns property all over the planet. 2. Verse 2.....has had illicit dealings with the kings of the earth, indicative of being known for involvement around the earth with a lot of political activity. 3. Verse 4....Some prominent colors visible around the city and her foreign properties are red, purple and gold as well as lavish and expensive things like precious stones, etc. In other words, known for a lot of fancy stuff and glitter. 4. verse 6....Involved with some nasty stuff like causing the death of Christians to the extent of being "drunken" with their blood. 5. verse 3......Sits upon a discriptive metaphoric "beast" whose 7 heads are seven hills/mountains/geological locations and whose 10 horns are ten kings/kingdoms. Note here that she sits among the nations so imo, one must assume that these "hills" are also global. The only global "hill"/high places I know of that are global are the continents of the planet. There is only one city on the face of the earth which actually owns vast real estate on the earth's continents. 6. verse 16....The ten beast kings shall come to hate the city and shall persecute her and eventually cause her destruction. 7. verse 18.....The city has at some time or other been known to actually have exercised ruling power over the kings of the earth. 8. Chapter 18, verses 11-13: She is involved in all kinds of commercial things, fine things and even in the souls of men, indicative of a religious element.
It is prophesied that the time will come when this city will burn up and be gone in ONE HOUR'S TIME. It will of needs, in order to be fulfilled, come to happen at a time when it is possible for a city to be burned up in such a short time. It will of needs also have to happen at a time in history when it is possible for kings, shipmasters and others to view the burning from afar. These, imo indicative of both nuclear destructive devices and television.
Anybody care to name that city? Remember, to be correct, it must have all these attributes.
quote:Ancient Rome. You can't get more obvious. Rome is famous for sitting on seven hills; its colors were red (blood), gold (money), and purple (the imperial color); it ruled over most of the world, sat on many waters, was involved in the death of large numbers of Christians, etc. Many argue that the 10 horns were the 10 tribes that defeated the Roman empire, although there are many things that "10" can be - think of all of the things in your city that there are "10" of.
GONG!! Nice try, Rei. Some similarities here, but not it. Thanks for trying. To understand the 10 horns (kings) you need to couple this description of it with other references to it like Revelation 13 and Daniel 7. This horned beast emerges in the latter days to destroy the city in one hour. Impossible with ancient Rome.
1. Neither the city of Rome, ancient or modern owns real estate among the nations nor does it literally 'sit' on all the 7 hills in the area. Nor are the hills of the area global as the text shows to be the case. 2. It would have been impossible for ancient Rome to have been consumed by fire in one hour as would be possible today or for the shipmasters and kings of earth to view it from afar. 3. The colors and description of the city of Rome are no especially significant in the city of Rome as in another city which fits ALL the criteria including, significantly, the colors. 4. The city of Rome proper is no more of a religious nature than most other cities, dealing in and with the souls of men as has the other city. 5. There is no specific reason for the kings of the world to 'hate' and seek to destroy the city of Rome. There is another city which they have every reason to hate and want to destroy, especially considering the UN is highly influenced and biased in favor of Islamic nations. 6. The city of Rome does not own vast real estate, commercial enterprises and have their fingers in all kinds of expensive stuff around the globe as does this other city.
........So the challenge remains........NAME THAT CITY.
[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 09-29-2003]
quote:Buzsaw Is there some reason to believe that this is not the same babylon that is in the old testament?
GONG II. 1. It is a prophecy of a future city. (This would be another objection to it being ancient Rome) 2. The seven hills would have no bearing or significance. 3. It is prophesied that old Babylon will never again flourish, but be inhabited by birds and animals like jackals and owls. That remains to be true, even after Saddam has done some building there. 4. The kings of the earth and the shipmasters would neither be able to see old Babylon or ancient Rome burn from afar.
[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 09-29-2003]
quote:OH OH OH! It's the Hal Lindsey, Jack Chick conspirasey theory! I know, I know!
BINGO!! Yaro, you get the prize! And the prize is sincere congratulations from buz and I pray, may God's blessings be upon you in a special way in such a way that you will be aware of it in Jesus's name!
Btw, Hal Lindsay doesn't quite see it as set forth here. He has a different interpretation for the prophecy of chapter 18 than being a literal one connected with 17. He also has the beast and the woman in some kind of federation in cooperation. He's not done his homework on this well, imo.
quote:If your beast is metaphoric then it doesn't seem logical to fault someone's answer for not LITERALLY fulfilling the metaphor.
If you say I am predicting the next person to walk in a room is as a turtle... guess who it is." And someone says "it's Frank, he gets really withdrawn if you get too excited around him." and you say "it cannot be frank as his head does not retract into his shell... in fact he doesn't have a shell!" then that doesn't really make sense now does it?
Your model here is a flawed comparison. In the prophecy, the angel showed the prophet the image of a beast having seven heads and ten horns. Nobody but John knows exactly what the beast actually looked like and it really doesn't matter to the reader of the prophecy. What matters to the reader of the prophecy is that the heads and horns of the beast are specific places, things or people to arrive on the world scene at a future date in such a manner that the readers of the prophecy will recognize the description as to be seen in what eventually emerges for the fulfillment of it which is the case here.
quote:I mean you argue that it can't be ancient rome because it does not own real estate among many nations... what if owning real estate for many nations is just a metaphor for, say, having land in many areas of the world... an empire of sorts?
Because the data given as interpretation of the meaning and purpose of Mystery Babylon are literal events which the metaphoric Mystery Babylon was intended to represent.
Edits to correct topical and gramatical errors in post.
[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 09-29-2003]
quote:It's been a while, could you break down the theory for me? How is the vatican involved in the end time prophecey exactly?
I don't remember exactly how it works.
The prophecy is not necessarily all pertaining to the end time. The prophecy is about a city which would some time emerge to eventually fulfill all the details of the prophecy. Vatican City began to emerge as early as the 4th century as I understand it, but didn't actually become an independent city/state until 1929. However it's been a city for centuries. The history of it bears out the killing and the domination of kings by it's influence. The colors are most obvious when a gathering of cardinals with the pope sitting on his golden throne studded with precious stones surrounded by large heavy purple drapes in the decor. I have a picture of this taken from an old Look magazine. On the flip side of the page was Cardinal Spellman with a golden cup in his hand. The cathredrals around the world are all the most lavish, beautiful and expensive architecture of all cathedrals, for the most part. These are all owned by Vatican City and the RCC, though they are not located in the city proper. Thus the city sits on the continents of the world which I take to match the seven hills. I understand there's actually a RCC presence in Anartica.
As for the end time, which I believe is emerging, there is a desperate global conflict going on in many nations by Islamic fundamentalist regimes to prevail over all Christianity. In several African nations the struggle is hot and heavy with millions of Christians, including Catholics and Protestants being slaughtered by Islamic funded and motivated forces with the blessings and support of the Islamic central governments. The UN is highly biased towards Islam and anti-Christian in policy. The Baltics wars made this very clear, as well as how the votes show in UN policy against Israel and the US and favoring Islamic agendas in the Mideast and elsewhere. Noting is done, as in the Baltics for the horrific holocaust going on as we speak in places like Sudan and other African nations. About 30 nations are totally totalitarian Islamic regimes where no religious freedom is allowed. So this persecution of the "woman" of Revelation 17 is going on as we post with fundamentalist Christians caught up in the holocaust.
Consider how different the Islamic/Christianity conflict would become in favor of Islam if Vatican City were suddenly nuked off the map whilst an important conclave of who's who in RCC was going on there. I'm not wishing death or destruction on anyone, btw. I want to make that clear. i'm simply posting what I believe the prophecy is declaring will happen. These religious rivals, Vatican City and Islam have fairly well held one another at bay since Islam emerged in the 7th century. That's left both Israel and us fundies with less pressure and persecution by either, but if the Vatican goes, Islam, allied with Russia, as also prophesied and as has been the case in past recent history will become predominant on the world scene with the West becoming the lesser power and influence.
As for the commercial enterprises of Vatican City around the globe and global real estate owned by Vatican city, including all the Cathedrals, churches and schools, I'll get to that in answer to PaulK's post when I can get to it. It's an interesting subject in itself.
If you have any other specific items you wish for me to comment on, feel free to ask.
quote:Yes, which according to Matthew 24:33-34 and many other passages, is due about 19 centuries ago.
Well, if the city described existed then, go ahead. Name it with documentation of description.
All hasn't been fulfilled yet has it? Clearly Jesus was referring to the generation that would see the the restoration of Jews to Jerusalem and Israel as stated a few verses before that. You've gotta be reasonable and make sense out of these prophecies if they're gonna apprise you of anything. On the other hand, if you've gotta defend your secularistic agenda, as you Biblical skeptics seem to find the need to do, come hell or high water, to heck with ackknowledgement of anything supernatural in the Bible. Right?
[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 09-30-2003]
quote:Ok, then tell us what is going to happen next? What will unfold over then next 25 years? Is the Vatican going to be destroyed?
What will happen next? In order to answer that one must observe what is happening now. That possibly should go in a separate thread, as it involves a lot about Islam and other prophecies not directly, but indirectly related to Mystery Babylon. Let's try to keep the subject here on this Mystery Babylon city. As I understand the prophecy, the city will be literally and suddenly destroyed with people from afar viewing the smoke of it's destruction, much like was the case with our twin towers. Who'd have ever thought a few men in two planes armed with nothing but box cutters could accomplish this. Why should it be such an impossibility in our day for this prophecy to literally be fulfilled? The description fits 100% as I've shown to be the case and it looks and quacks like a duck. I can't prove to anyone that it will happen. I've shown that the prophecy is on track and fully capable of literal fulfillment as things stand to date. Each can use their own judgement as to the value or credibility of all this just as all can judge for ourselves whether it's possible for all that exists to self create with no intelligent guidance as some of you believe. To some of us that requires more faith than the supernatural via intelligence.
RCC influence is giving way to pagan and other religions such as Islam. Public sentiment is growing against all Christianity world wide. Secularists and pagans are more or less aligning in this Christophobicism. It will become more so as time goes on. Every time you hear negative things about either RCC or other forms of Christianity, including us fundamentalists, remember the Bible said it would be so. Much, if not most of the negative attitude is warranted, as Christianity continues it's drift away from the fundamentals taught by Jesus and the apostles, and disintegrates into apostacy, as, btw was also prophesied by the prophets for the last days. There will, however, be overcomers, but they too will be persecuted and many more millions martyred via the great tribulation which is emerging upon us, and particularly in the Eastern Hemisphere.
quote:If you look at the world, yes, there are lots of people being killed in violence. But the majority aren't Christians.
Those killed by their own governments and their own countrymen are majority Christian. Otherwise the world body doesn't tolerate it, as was the case in the Balkans, Israel, Chile, South Africa, Rhodesia, etc.
quote:In the same region? Well the Baltic states (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia) are north-western Europe; the Balkans (Bosnia, Croatia, Herzogovina(sp?), Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia etc.) are south-eastern Europe.
I stand corrected. Thanks, wi, for the education on this.