quote:OH OH OH! It's the Hal Lindsey, Jack Chick conspirasey theory! I know, I know!
BINGO!! Yaro, you get the prize! And the prize is sincere congratulations from buz and I pray, may God's blessings be upon you in a special way in such a way that you will be aware of it in Jesus's name!
Btw, Hal Lindsay doesn't quite see it as set forth here. He has a different interpretation for the prophecy of chapter 18 than being a literal one connected with 17. He also has the beast and the woman in some kind of federation in cooperation. He's not done his homework on this well, imo.
quote:If your beast is metaphoric then it doesn't seem logical to fault someone's answer for not LITERALLY fulfilling the metaphor.
If you say I am predicting the next person to walk in a room is as a turtle... guess who it is." And someone says "it's Frank, he gets really withdrawn if you get too excited around him." and you say "it cannot be frank as his head does not retract into his shell... in fact he doesn't have a shell!" then that doesn't really make sense now does it?
Your model here is a flawed comparison. In the prophecy, the angel showed the prophet the image of a beast having seven heads and ten horns. Nobody but John knows exactly what the beast actually looked like and it really doesn't matter to the reader of the prophecy. What matters to the reader of the prophecy is that the heads and horns of the beast are specific places, things or people to arrive on the world scene at a future date in such a manner that the readers of the prophecy will recognize the description as to be seen in what eventually emerges for the fulfillment of it which is the case here.
quote:I mean you argue that it can't be ancient rome because it does not own real estate among many nations... what if owning real estate for many nations is just a metaphor for, say, having land in many areas of the world... an empire of sorts?
Because the data given as interpretation of the meaning and purpose of Mystery Babylon are literal events which the metaphoric Mystery Babylon was intended to represent.
Edits to correct topical and gramatical errors in post.
[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 09-29-2003]
Just looking at your handling of the "seven hills" it is clear that you stretch the original text (do you really think that the original readers would have interpreted it as you do rather than as a reference to the seven hills of Rome ?), There is nothing that says that the seven hills have to be global. The horns are certainly not the whole of the beast, let alone the waters.
But then you even have to stretch your own reading. Vatican City does not own any territory outside Italy, other than the usual provisions for Embassies. Nor does Vatican City rule over many people. The Vatican is controlled by the Roman Catholic Church, not vice versa.
quote:It's been a while, could you break down the theory for me? How is the vatican involved in the end time prophecey exactly?
I don't remember exactly how it works.
The prophecy is not necessarily all pertaining to the end time. The prophecy is about a city which would some time emerge to eventually fulfill all the details of the prophecy. Vatican City began to emerge as early as the 4th century as I understand it, but didn't actually become an independent city/state until 1929. However it's been a city for centuries. The history of it bears out the killing and the domination of kings by it's influence. The colors are most obvious when a gathering of cardinals with the pope sitting on his golden throne studded with precious stones surrounded by large heavy purple drapes in the decor. I have a picture of this taken from an old Look magazine. On the flip side of the page was Cardinal Spellman with a golden cup in his hand. The cathredrals around the world are all the most lavish, beautiful and expensive architecture of all cathedrals, for the most part. These are all owned by Vatican City and the RCC, though they are not located in the city proper. Thus the city sits on the continents of the world which I take to match the seven hills. I understand there's actually a RCC presence in Anartica.
As for the end time, which I believe is emerging, there is a desperate global conflict going on in many nations by Islamic fundamentalist regimes to prevail over all Christianity. In several African nations the struggle is hot and heavy with millions of Christians, including Catholics and Protestants being slaughtered by Islamic funded and motivated forces with the blessings and support of the Islamic central governments. The UN is highly biased towards Islam and anti-Christian in policy. The Baltics wars made this very clear, as well as how the votes show in UN policy against Israel and the US and favoring Islamic agendas in the Mideast and elsewhere. Noting is done, as in the Baltics for the horrific holocaust going on as we speak in places like Sudan and other African nations. About 30 nations are totally totalitarian Islamic regimes where no religious freedom is allowed. So this persecution of the "woman" of Revelation 17 is going on as we post with fundamentalist Christians caught up in the holocaust.
Consider how different the Islamic/Christianity conflict would become in favor of Islam if Vatican City were suddenly nuked off the map whilst an important conclave of who's who in RCC was going on there. I'm not wishing death or destruction on anyone, btw. I want to make that clear. i'm simply posting what I believe the prophecy is declaring will happen. These religious rivals, Vatican City and Islam have fairly well held one another at bay since Islam emerged in the 7th century. That's left both Israel and us fundies with less pressure and persecution by either, but if the Vatican goes, Islam, allied with Russia, as also prophesied and as has been the case in past recent history will become predominant on the world scene with the West becoming the lesser power and influence.
As for the commercial enterprises of Vatican City around the globe and global real estate owned by Vatican city, including all the Cathedrals, churches and schools, I'll get to that in answer to PaulK's post when I can get to it. It's an interesting subject in itself.
If you have any other specific items you wish for me to comment on, feel free to ask.
quote:Yes, which according to Matthew 24:33-34 and many other passages, is due about 19 centuries ago.
Well, if the city described existed then, go ahead. Name it with documentation of description.
All hasn't been fulfilled yet has it? Clearly Jesus was referring to the generation that would see the the restoration of Jews to Jerusalem and Israel as stated a few verses before that. You've gotta be reasonable and make sense out of these prophecies if they're gonna apprise you of anything. On the other hand, if you've gotta defend your secularistic agenda, as you Biblical skeptics seem to find the need to do, come hell or high water, to heck with ackknowledgement of anything supernatural in the Bible. Right?
[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 09-30-2003]
So there are all these accurate prophecies in the bible? And the "end times" are, as you say, emerging?
Ok, then tell us what is going to happen next? What will unfold over then next 25 years? Is the Vatican going to be destroyed?
Will this be a literal distruction? Or will it be a humiliation over priestly wrong doings that would, after the fact, be called the "destruction" of the Vatican? What to these prophecies predict and how are we to interpret them?
I'm kinda bored with prophecies that need someone to tell me what they were supposed to mean and then only after the event has happened.
(edited to correct the most egregious errors)
[This message has been edited by NosyNed, 09-30-2003]