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Author Topic:   Message of the Bible
Yaro
Member (Idle past 4810 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 2 of 213 (68558)
11-22-2003 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
11-22-2003 2:52 PM


What?

How are we supposed to understand God other than what is stated in the Bible. This is what most of us find objectionable. God in the OT, is a murdering meglomaniac, in the NT he's a hippie. So, what ARE we supposed to think?

That this us a consistent creator, who espouses consistent reliable moral guidelines when his Biblical nature portrays him as a bit of a pschizophrenic(sp)?

And what has God said that has come to pass? I have yet to find one thing. Most of the events in the Bible fail to stand up to scientific scrutany, and historical data. So what on earth has God ever said that can be known for sure has happend?

[This message has been edited by Yaro, 11-22-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-22-2003 2:52 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-22-2003 3:38 PM Yaro has responded
 Message 63 by jantoo1, posted 12-06-2003 12:56 AM Yaro has not yet responded
 Message 112 by P e t e r, posted 01-09-2004 10:33 AM Yaro has responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4810 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 14 of 213 (68619)
11-22-2003 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Cold Foreign Object
11-22-2003 3:38 PM


Hey Willow Tree,

Until you understand that IF God is God then He is answerable to no one but Himself. Why did He tell on Himself and include all the horror of the O.T. ? What you don't like is the judgements He made.You reject God because you do not like the fact that He told the children of Israel to kill every living thing in the promise land. The point is that God judges those refuse to listen to Him. You reject God because you dont like the way He treated some people.

This God ordered rape, murder, and infantaside. And yet he was makeing sound an Just orders?

You say those he slayed didn't listen to him. Did the babys not listen? The young virgins that were raped? People who had lived in Cana for generations before the isrealits. Why do they deserve to die?

If this God exists, why would I want to worship him? He's a psychopath!

Well you are alive and He hasn't killed you so how is God a murderer ?

Jhon Wayne Gaysee is alive, he hasn't killed you, so how is he a murderer?

The horror of the O.T. is because of the seriouness of sin which you do not see.

What sin do I not see? I read about a bunch of people who settled a land. Generations later, some isrealites decide to take it back. So the isrealites kill everyone in sight. What sin didn't I see?

Maybe you don't see the SIN, the isrealies commited when they dashed babies on rocks and raped young women.

The love of the N.T. rectifies this but people like you do not want to deal with a Creator period.

How does the NT rectify this? Supposedly most of the world is gonna go to hell and burn anyway. I think things were better when only some of us were killed by those murderous isrealites.

Ever thought about all the american indians before Columbus? Thier in hell now I suppose. Never got a chance to reject God eaither, because they never heard of him.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-22-2003 3:38 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Tsegamla, posted 11-22-2003 7:39 PM Yaro has not yet responded
 Message 16 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-22-2003 8:40 PM Yaro has responded
 Message 40 by Ragnarok10, posted 11-28-2003 5:54 AM Yaro has responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4810 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 19 of 213 (68709)
11-23-2003 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Cold Foreign Object
11-22-2003 8:40 PM


Re: Reply to Yaro
Your reply to my last topic completely misquoted me . Nowhere did I say or admit that God ordered the rape of anyone - YOU DID , you are the one who leveled that lie.

No, I didnt say that, the Bible did. Here id Gods commandment to MosessĀ“ army.

Num 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Num 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Now, you may argue that these things are ok because god said they were. Whatever god does, it dosnt matter. He is the messure of good and evil right?

How do you figure?

Supposedly we have the ability to judge right and worong, just as God does. Just read Genisis

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

We are like him, or them (we can get into that wierdness later). Thus we have the same knowledge of right and wrong that they do. So now why does god get special morality? Does might make right?

Now, why not adress some of these questions, and let us have a discussion concerning what you belive makes your god a GOOD god, and indeed a real and fair god.

You didnĀ“t even adress my question about the indians, which I really would like a take on.

From genisis I can conclude that we have the same faculty for descerning good from evil as god. So, when I read numbers and read about baby killing, and virgin rapeing, I can conclude with that faculty that that kinda stuff just aint right. And if god sets the messure for morality, he does it not sobujectively as you claim we do, but rather arbitrearaly, at his whim. Thats kind of a stupid idea of god dont you think?

EDIT,

One more question willowtree. Why if I wanna know more, do I need to read someone elses opinion? Shouldent the Bible, Gods own word, speak for itsellf?

I have read the bible more than once, and it never struck me as divine. Its errors, and far fetched stories were amusing. Its philosophies intriguing, but never did it strike me as Gods work. So why do I need to read some humans work to prove god, when gods own work, the bible, fails to prove him to me?

[This message has been edited by Yaro, 11-23-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-22-2003 8:40 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-23-2003 6:28 PM Yaro has responded
 Message 27 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-23-2003 6:29 PM Yaro has not yet responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4810 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 31 of 213 (68879)
11-23-2003 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Cold Foreign Object
11-23-2003 6:28 PM


Again Willowtree, you hand wave my qyestions despite me showing explicit biblical evidence.

Please review my previous post, and atempt to adress the following issues if you can:

Num 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Num 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Now, here we have an explicit order from God to kill babies, and rape virgins.

Ok. So I'll make the question simple for you, was this a Good thing?

Even more bluntly, in this story, God said it was ok to kill babies, and rape virgins, correct?

Now, then, how come human morality easely tells me that killing inocents and rapeing young women is an unjustifiable act. And don't tell me that God is the standard of Morality because Genisis clearly indicates that Morality is something separete from God all together.

As I quoted hear:

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

How could knowing good and evil be a quality that makes us like god and his fellow gods, if good and evil is a quality made by god? That would be paradoxiacal, as then god would have to be self creating, negating the idea of an infinit god.

wouldnt you agree then that this quote tels us we have the same moral guage as god, by His own admition?

So, how then, can god make infantaside and rape Good?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-23-2003 6:28 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-25-2003 8:50 PM Yaro has responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4810 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 37 of 213 (69329)
11-25-2003 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Cold Foreign Object
11-25-2003 8:50 PM


The text says that they could possess those people, the chief intent in those days was servitude, for you to say rape reveals your hoped for bias. It does not say rape nor does it imply rape.

Why then did he order them to kill everything except the virgin females?

He implicily orders the soldiers to keep the virgins "for themselves".

What do you make of this?

Some invading army kills your parents, siblings, animals, takes all your posessions destroys your home etc. Captures you, and forces you to be his 'possesion'. How is this not rape? cuz Im sure a bunch of horny isrelite soldiers on the rampage, with a bunch of nubile young captives aren't gonna rape sombody.

If you need a more explicit endorsement try these which I posed in an earlyer discusion:

Judges 21:10-24

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

And this little gem:

DEUT 20:10-14 As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

So, does god endorse rape, at least by implication?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-25-2003 8:50 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-02-2003 8:28 PM Yaro has responded
 Message 51 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-02-2003 8:31 PM Yaro has not yet responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4810 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 42 of 213 (69697)
11-28-2003 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Ragnarok10
11-28-2003 5:54 AM


Re: Savings account
Nice Side stepping the issue Ragnerok.

I was asking, this simple question. If God is the standard of morality, how can he order rape and make it good?

Acording to him we have the same faculty for descerning good and evil, so why does all my sensibilities tell me baby killing is evil?

Also, I am getting sick and tired of all of you Christians totaly acting like you don't see anything even remotely indicative of rape whenever I bring these verses up.

CAN YOU, OR ANYONE EXPLAIN TO ME, WHY THE SOLDIERS GET TO KEEP THE VIRGINS (NOT BABYS, ANIMALS, OLD FOLK ETC.) "FOR THEMSELVES"?

IF NOT RAPE, WHY THE VIRGINS!!!!!!

STOP ACTING LIKE YOU DON'T SEE THIS, AND PRETENDING I AM SEEING WHAT I WANT, CUZ I'M NOT. SO, PLEASE, SOMEBODY, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, TELL ME WHY THEY KEEP THE VIRGINS, AND KILL EVERYTHING ELSE, IF NOT FOR SEXUAL PURPOSES!!!!!??????

[This message has been edited by Yaro, 11-28-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Ragnarok10, posted 11-28-2003 5:54 AM Ragnarok10 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Ragnarok10, posted 11-28-2003 3:30 PM Yaro has responded
 Message 186 by P e t e r, posted 01-14-2004 2:12 AM Yaro has responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4810 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 44 of 213 (69869)
11-29-2003 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Ragnarok10
11-28-2003 3:30 PM


Re: Savings account
Whoa... calm down.

No problem , I was just trying to emphasize what I want answered. I have brought this issue up before, and it seems no one ever really adresses it. They speak in broad generalities, without once looking at the specific example I brought up.

I'd really like to explain, then, it would be kinda pointless since you guys don't believe in God, right...?

No, it would'nt be pointless. First, I never said I did or didn't belive in God. And that is not the issue, the issue is simply weather or not the God christians preach about is the same one as portraid in the bible.

It seems the examples above show God commanding some horrible things, rape, murder, infantaside. How could this be the all loving, all powerfull good, and how could he possibly be all good, if he does these bad things?

Now, the common answer has been, that God defines good. Yet, in genisis we are told that we have the same ability as him to know good from evil. So, I say we know good and evil, so I can rightly say killing babies and rapeing virgins is never a good thing.

So again, let me restate the question by quoting the above (excuse the caps please):

CAN YOU, OR ANYONE EXPLAIN TO ME, WHY THE SOLDIERS GET TO KEEP THE VIRGINS (NOT BABYS, ANIMALS, OLD FOLK ETC.) "FOR THEMSELVES"?

IF NOT RAPE, WHY THE VIRGINS!!!!!!

STOP ACTING LIKE YOU DON'T SEE THIS, AND PRETENDING I AM SEEING WHAT I WANT, CUZ I'M NOT. SO, PLEASE, SOMEBODY, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, TELL ME WHY THEY KEEP THE VIRGINS, AND KILL EVERYTHING ELSE, IF NOT FOR SEXUAL PURPOSES!!!!!??????

Can you, or ANYONE, answer the above? Please read the bible quotes I posted all the way at the top of this page so you know what I am refering to.

I would truely be thankfull, even for an answer I don't agree with. As long as it is sensible. My highest respects, I apologize for my frustration, I just want to make myself clear.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Ragnarok10, posted 11-28-2003 3:30 PM Ragnarok10 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 4810 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 45 of 213 (70193)
12-01-2003 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Yaro
11-29-2003 12:02 PM


*bump*

I would really love it if someone could adress these specific bible stories and provide their opinion concerning their relationship with the issues above.

thank you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Yaro, posted 11-29-2003 12:02 PM Yaro has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Rei, posted 12-01-2003 1:21 PM Yaro has responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4810 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 47 of 213 (70377)
12-01-2003 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Rei
12-01-2003 1:21 PM


Heheh... I really didn't mean to have an outburst like that. I really apologize, it's just irritating since I have asked this before, and I never seem to get a straight answer.

I apologize to everyone, and I din't mean to put anyone off the discussion for it.

So as Rei said, anyone wanna have a stab at it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Rei, posted 12-01-2003 1:21 PM Rei has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 12-01-2003 10:08 PM Yaro has responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4810 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 49 of 213 (70648)
12-02-2003 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by ConsequentAtheist
12-01-2003 10:08 PM


*bump*

Ok, this is my last bump. I promiss. I will consider this thread dead if no one else answers me on this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 12-01-2003 10:08 PM ConsequentAtheist has not yet responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4810 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 53 of 213 (70692)
12-03-2003 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Cold Foreign Object
12-02-2003 8:28 PM


In fact, the passages in question assume the virgins would welcome the option of life rather than die with the people God ordered to be killed.

Then how do you interpret the law in Duteronomy saying that you can keep townspeople in forced laboro or kill them all and take their women?

How about Jebesh-Giliad, that sounds like a "green light" for forced marrige?

The broader issue that is being smothered here is that we are judging an ancient era by the gauge of our standards in the 21st century.

Then how do we judge which laws apply today and which don't? Homosexuality for instance. Or the taboos around pre-merrital sex, after all we have birth controll now.

Also, this seems to imply that Gods version of right and wrong is variable, and arbitrary.

Yaro, are you familiar with the O.T. event where the prophet was insulted by a group of children and the horror that followed ?

Why don't you argue against the unfairness of happened and I will answer you , and then you will begin to understand WHY God told on Himself. What do you say ?

Well, I would say NO. You have yet to adress my questions above. You have not yet justified Gods actions in the incidents above. However, I assume you find this story familiar ground (Joralex deja vu).

So yes, I know the passage. I belive it was 2nd Kings: chapter 2, verses 23-24.

2Ki 2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

2Ki 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Ok, my argument is short. The kids didn't deserve it, 42 children died for calling Elija bald. That's pretty messed up.

What's your justification?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-02-2003 8:28 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Yaro, posted 12-05-2003 1:10 AM Yaro has responded
 Message 61 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-05-2003 8:26 PM Yaro has responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4810 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 54 of 213 (71111)
12-05-2003 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Yaro
12-03-2003 2:11 AM


*bump*

WT, lets talk about the bears.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Yaro, posted 12-03-2003 2:11 AM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Yaro, posted 12-05-2003 12:29 PM Yaro has not yet responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4810 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 55 of 213 (71205)
12-05-2003 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Yaro
12-05-2003 1:10 AM


*bump*

Anyone wanna talk about the bears or the virgins?

I don't mean to be anoying, but I really want to finalize this topic once and for all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Yaro, posted 12-05-2003 1:10 AM Yaro has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Chiroptera, posted 12-05-2003 12:54 PM Yaro has not yet responded
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 4810 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 62 of 213 (71299)
12-05-2003 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Cold Foreign Object
12-05-2003 8:26 PM


You have persistently hammered one constant point - that God ordered and condoned rape. Then you softened your stance and admitted that the verses you posted could IMPLY rape.

If not rape, what about Gibesh-Giliead? They kidnaped women and took them for 'wives'!

If you do not consider the mosess massacre rape, then it is at least forced servitude to your families murderers. Would you not say that this is not equaly abhorant? Someone kills your family, friends, livestock etc. and then forces you to be someones wife! Sorry, but this is some evil stuff.

Rape or not, horrible attrocities are being commited here. I do apreciate consequentAthiests post, though it still does not justify the twisted morality of the situation.

Are you compeatly blind to the fact that its not right to kill people and take their virgins for whatever purpose, in any context?

Did it ever occur to you that ambushing dancing women and forcing them into marrige is not a good and richeous act?

It is in this context that God makes His judgments upon mankind separated from Him and in constant violation of His law. The reason there is so much blood in the O.T. is because there is so much sin.

Gods people shed most of the blood.

Are you saying that they were clensing the world of sin? It seems they were killing a bunch of babys, burning villages, and abducting virgins for mysterious purposes somehow related to their virginity but not including rape.

The one constant message that God weaves through His word is : Good or bad whatever He says will happen. The risk of defying God is the risk that He will give up on you and judge you according to His law which has the frequent penalty of death.

I think this is the heart of the argument.

So God is like a ruthless dictator. He remains hidden, unseen, and distant. Makes up laws you never heard of, then kills you for breaking them.

Pretend you were a person in that village, never heard of isrealites, God, whatever. Happily tended your goats, farmd your land, and warshiped your own dietis.

One day a bunch of people come over your hill and kill you all because they claim the land is theirs. Given to them centuries back lang before anyone can remember. No one told you, your just dead now.

Kinda reminds me of the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy:

The Vogons come to earth to destroy it and make way for their Hyperspace bypass. The people of earth ask why they didn't get a warning, the vogons explain that the plans had been anounced ages ago, and had been on display in the planing office on a planet some light years away. The people of earth had several centuries in which to apeal the decree at the galactic council, but since they didn't they are going to be destroyed. Of cource, the humans werent even aware of other planets, let alone a planing counsil, so they could have never apealed. Their planet was buldozed by a beurocracy they were never aware existed at all.

God seems to do this alot in the OT. It seems hes doing this to people all over the world all the time.

Sorry, but I don't think it's fair.

The only answer I recive from you is whatver God says goes. Might makes right, and I simply don't think this is acceptable.

If us humans cant tell evil when we see it, or bad when we see it, then what did we gain in the garden?

Willowtree, what is the knowledge of good and evil we gained in the garden?

God says he is subject to this, as he explains that this is the quality that makes us like him. Thus he has the same facility for guaging morality as us. How come I read about murder, infantaside, forced marrige (not rape of cource), and think "gee, thats bad, in any context really", yet god gets to be good and all loving while he does these things?

He said we had the same knowledge of good and evil. Yet I know baby killing is bad. So Willowtree, how come god, with the same knowledge as us, gets to say it's good?

[This message has been edited by Yaro, 12-05-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-05-2003 8:26 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Brian, posted 12-08-2003 2:25 PM Yaro has responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4810 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 68 of 213 (71419)
12-06-2003 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Cold Foreign Object
12-06-2003 9:48 PM


(deleted... I now understand the flow of the posts. This one was unecesary. Apologies. -Yaro)

[This message has been edited by Yaro, 12-06-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-06-2003 9:48 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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