Message of the Bible

WILLOWTREEAs you say it is the bible[at least for you apparently]that forms the basis for a belief in God. For myself at least this speaks volumes as to the validity of God. There is no part of the bible that makes the case for this book as being inspired by much less the actual word of God.
If it is in your nature to accept such as true that is your choice.As an atheist I do not reject God I simply have no attendance to the belief. I suppose you can argue endlessly about the existence of such things but I am no worse off for the absence of this in my life and I feel that I have a good life and I enjoy the small time that I have to exist.I have great kids who try my patience and wear me down and dress odd and listen to horrible music.Every once in a while,though,they do something magical.They sing when they think no one is listening or they sculpt things out of clay that amaze me with their beauty and imagination.And sometimes I actually catch them making decisions that show me they will be alright long after I am gone.It is at these times that life shows me the lesson of death for humans.Without it we would too easily take for granted the important people in our lives and too easily miss the magic of these moments.------------------
"Physics is like sex. Sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it."

WT Innocent of what,disobedience? You say He gives us free will then he kills and tortures because we make a free choice. This is the action of someone who loves us? Pardon me old man but Bullshit.The Adam and Eve of the Bible were innocent since before they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they had no concept of their actions being good or evil.Just like children who do not have the concept of such things they cannot be held accountable to their actions.It is as if I as a father were to give my 2 yearold a gun,release the safety,tell them not to point the thing at their sibling or I will be angry and punish them. Then I come back after hearing the shot to find the one child dead and then punishing the child I gave the gun to.Even woese with the position of the God you worship He would have been aware of the action as it was happening.So do we in society hold children who accidently kill responsible for the act I descibed above.Of course not.And we should honor,worship and cherish the one who gave us the gun?BUllshit cubed buddy!

WTAgain you take the attacks on the reasons you give for God's actions as personal attacks on you. I attacked the point you made about in regards to people being killed by God.You have a problem with me saying bullshit to a point you made that has no evidence for its existence.[after all since when are you or anybody qualified to state whether someone is innocent or not.]But don't you dare get in a huff about being unfairly treated.I fully respect your right to an opinion.I also respect my right not to have to blindly accept it. I also have the right to express my opinion on points you make.I spelled out what what the bullshit was about.If a scientist makes an error in his logic or his evidence is on shaky ground it is IMO the duty of a person to point out the weakness. The same goes for theologians.You back up my point with this statement. This is free will that was given to them by God. He gave it to them and then punishes them for using it.These are the actions of a Father?This is why I used the point of a gun being given to a 2 year old with the safety off. It is a BULLSHIT statement that makes no sense upon thinking about it IMO.It is not that you are bullshit for making it ok?I must be off to work now. Have a good day.

P e t e rI think we can see the problem here. Asgara and others are asking for independant verification of God's existence seperate from the bible while you are showing us independant verification of the existence of belief in God seperate from the bible.If I were to get a book from a university on evolution and claim that a section of that book is proof of the claims that are made within the book you would not allow that to be the sole basis of agreeing with the book would you? You would follow up and check out to make sure that the lines of resoning within the book have evidence seperate from the claims made.Nor would you allow the opinions of people who support the claims made be given as evidence that the claims are true correct?In the same way we ask that independant evidence of the biblical God be shown in other books seperate from those shown in the bible.You cannot use testimony of people as sole evidence either since people have many different ways to be in error.

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"The Puritans. Our ancestors. People so uptight the English kicked them out. How fucking anal do you have to be for the English to say 'get the fuck out!'"
~~ Robin Williams

WT The idea of trusting a father in heaven whom you must fear because he actually loves you depsite him being a jealous God strikes me at the least as to be walking in realm of the mad.Just my opinion of course.

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"I am not young enough to know everything. "
Oscar Wilde

P e t e rRand Al'Thor is not a green alien.
Peter by your standards this is evidence.Which evidence is correct? Mine or Rand Al'Thors'?

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"I am not young enough to know everything. "
Oscar Wilde[This message has been edited by sidelined, 01-11-2004]

WTLet me get this straight Jesus is God ,God is Jesus.Correct? Just what sacrifice did He make? If He was Immortal to begin with then He has no death to face. Exactly what do you suppose happens to the sins He takes from you? How does he suffer? Does He spend time in hell for you or what?

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"I am not young enough to know everything. "
Oscar Wilde

WillowtreeThis is to let you know that I have read your response to Rand Al'Thor and your slippery response. This is taken from the website Bible Basics"The Bible as a whole, is a witness to what God has done since the beginning of time. The climax or pinnacle of the Bible is Jesus - God's coming to earth as a man (incarnate). The Old Testament is the history of God's work through the nation of Israel (or the Hebrew people) to the world in preparation for Jesus and was written at different time periods from about 1400 B.C. until 400 B.C.. The New Testament is the witness of Jesus' coming, life, teachings, work, and the ramifications of these to the people of that time and in the future till the end of time"Seems like a simple enough message yet you refuse to answer just how God becoming a man and then sacrificing his only son [who is {surprise!}himself] then gathers a bunch of worshippers around him and after showing off miracles commits suicide? by allowing himself to die upon a cross while displaying a weird split in his psyche as demonstrated by this passage. As Rand Al'Thor and I have both stated in this forum how does the dying on the cross and someone accepting Christ as saviour eliminate even the most vile and despicable of crimes against people?
If Christ were to serve in your place in hell being tortured by the same things you would have and do that for every 'saved' person then it makes sense but otherwise it means that you can be as bad as you want and honestly submit and the end of your life and all is forgiven?Maybe the problem in our understanding of the basics is that you do not understand them well enough to explain it. Perhaps Dr. Scott is actually just a simple man like yourself and is simply giving another take on a book that is myth and fable intersrersed with occasional wisdom. Either way you are avoiding the actual work of having to think for yourself without Scott's help and that IMO is why you will not contend with us on these very serious discrepencies.Good Day.

WillowtreeeI see the issue as you view it now,however,it does not even appear on my radar as I cannot personally fathom that the apparent need for bloodshed by God is in anyway consistent with a being who supposedly created the vast beauty of space,the immense complexity of life and the subtle intricasies of the forces underlying it all.I find a huge disconnect.It would be in analogy like me buliding a city on the surface of the moon with all the enormous concerns and details and complex ever changing issues and as I was going about my day to day juggling of extemely hard demands on my mind Iwas to suddenly fixate on a piece of dust and put in under the microscope and pay strict attention to the movement of denizens located thereon. Then with all the incredibly complex things occupying my time I am going to personally dote upon this piece of dust,demand blood sacrifice of animals,issue laws to it that I do not need to personally obey, involve myself in prayer and pleading, with immense galaxy sized [atbest] fingers I will manipulate political and social and personal issues when and where it so pleases me.I could go on but this is just to illustrate why I cannot agree to the proposition.This most especially since my analogy is minute compared to what God would face.Thank you for yout presentation of your worldview it does state your position clearly.You have a good day.

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"I am not young enough to know everything. "
Oscar Wilde

Willowtree How did you come to the concusion that Christ was the only one who did not sin except through the bible which,its authors being human,can lie and bend truths to fit their agenda since without a messiah the bible falls apart?A child being eviserated in the streets by a bomb packing lunatic or living in agony from napalm burns or choking their last breath from the inhalation of poison gas is unfair. Suffering is the survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.The Jews of Dachau. Nobody deserves that shit.On a pain basis children in chemotherapy hurling their guts and crying from the cancer ravaging them makes a day on the cross look like a picnic on the beach with friends.Sorry but that arguement will never hold water.

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'Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts.'
(Daniel Patrick Moynihan)