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Author Topic:   Message of the Bible
Cold Foreign Object 
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Posts: 3417
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Message 1 of 213 (68554)
11-22-2003 2:52 PM


The CLAIM of the Bible is that it is the word of God. Critics constantly dismiss the CLAIM by merely stating that it was written by error prone man, therefore it could not reflect the mind of God accurately. The real reason behind the dismissal is rejection of its content because their subjective view of how God must be doesn't match what they read in scripture, therfore they shoot the messenger and reject the CLAIM. The CLAIM is verified and validated by the central message which is : Good or bad whatever God says comes to pass. When this is understood and seen it is intended to give US the confidence to claim the promises that apply to our circumstances.When the absolute reliability of His word is ascertained through its demon-stration then you now understand the message of the Bible.

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1790 days)
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Message 5 of 213 (68568)
11-22-2003 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Yaro
11-22-2003 2:58 PM


Until you understand that IF God is God then He is answerable to no one but Himself. Why did He tell on Himself and include all the horror of the O.T. ? What you don't like is the judgements He made. You reject God because you do not like the fact that He told the children of Israel to kill every living thing in the promise land. The point is that God judges those refuse to listen to Him. You reject God because you dont like the way He treated some people. Well you are alive and He hasn't killed you so how is God a murderer ? The horror of the O.T. is because of the seriouness of sin which you do not see. The love of the N.T. rectifies this but people like you do not want to deal with a Creator period.

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Cold Foreign Object 
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Message 9 of 213 (68589)
11-22-2003 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by crashfrog
11-22-2003 4:03 PM


Reply to Atheists
I thank everyone who has replied to my posts/topics, I would reply to them but I do not know how. Most replies came from atheists, and this means we are far apart in our views, that it is useless to debate what we have been debating because there is no common ground. So let me back up and get to the issue at hand : "The existence of God"
The Bible teaches {speaking for God of course} that atheism is a penalty from God for continually denying Him as Creator. This means that the atheist has not rejected per se, but God has rejected you as His response to your refusal to acknowledge Him as God. No person can manufacture the desire for God , any urge no matter how miniscule comes from God. To not have any desire for God , to not care what God thinks of you are the chief indicators that God has rejected you. Immediately one might say "I cant be rejected by someone that I dont believe exists". What the Bible is saying is that the reason you do not believe He exists is because He has rejected you even though from your perspective you believe you reject His existence for whatever reason you believe that to be true. The initiative starts with God, and He doesnt choose everyone contrary to traditional teaching which is wrong. Like it or not this is what the Bible teaches. To have any desire for God means He has not given up on you. Therefore , all you atheists out there who flatter yourselves about being desired by God you are deceiving only yourself. God aint on trial with no one. His unconditional love has one condition : that a person respond to it in a predetermined amount of time only known to God. The bare minimum that God asks is that a person acknowledge Him as God and to be thankful. The inability to do this means He has probably removed your ability to respond as a penalty for trifling with Him.

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1790 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 16 of 213 (68654)
11-22-2003 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Yaro
11-22-2003 7:04 PM


Reply to Yaro
Your reply to my last topic completely misquoted me . Nowhere did I say or admit that God ordered the rape of anyone - YOU DID , you are the one who leveled that lie. What all you OldTestament haters refuse to understand is that it is your sense of morality that is perverted and twisted. You see no evil except when it comes to God. He has the right to kill anyone for any reason at any time period. Because you disagree with that you instantly leap to the conclusion that He must not exist. Where do you get your subjective views of how God must be ?The issue is , Why did He tell on Himself and include the horrors of the O.T. ? Don't you think God knows that many accounts and events recorded in His book would be found ghastly by the modern mind ? Of course He did, He runs the risk of being misunderstood {which He has} in order to have the record in place so a God ordained person can explain it , that is the way God works. The only problem is we have a modern world that refuses to listen to the interpretation of the scriptures, we have a modern world that places God on trial when that God does something that conflicts with their subjective beliefs.
You atheists love to brand anything contrary to your own beliefs as irrational which is a polite way of saying you are crazy. You do not want God to exist because you do not want a boss, it wouldnt matter how much evidence there was you all still wouldnt believe. The established religious community of Jesus day had the Son in their very presence and they still didnt believe, the same is true today with the established religious community of our day - the fundementalists. They dont believe either, they believe in a code of conduct while adding the name of Jesus. If these two groups refuse to believe how can a bunch of athiests even think of it. My ultimate point is that you are the crazy ones , christianity is esoteric controlled by a selective God and I nor does God ever apologize for this. One last thing, if you want evidence concerning God and the claims in the Bible then start reading books like "Who moved the stone", or listen to Dr. Gene Scott give the evidence of the resurrection of Christ at his website {real player}.

This message is a reply to:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1790 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 20 of 213 (68819)
11-23-2003 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Yaro
11-23-2003 2:45 AM


Re: Reply to Yaro
The Bible does not say anywhere that God ordered the rape of anyone
topic over.
I do not know about the Indians, it is a great topic I agree.

The lesson of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is that God forbid them to eat it because He said so, because there is no power in having that knowledge to choose the good over the evil. The entire O.T. record from that point on proves this truth . Man sinning and failing with the knowledge . Nazi Germany was the most educated nation in history and they committed the Holocaust.

Your perspective on the O.T. is somewhat distorted, in that you simply believe that for God to be good He must be fair. Who decides what fair is ? Righteousness is whatever God does. The horror of the O.T. is God judging sinners according to His law , the same law He condemned His own Son with. This is a eternal subject....... until next time I have to go. Willowtree


This message is a reply to:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1790 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 27 of 213 (68820)
11-23-2003 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Yaro
11-23-2003 2:45 AM


Re: Reply to Yaro
one last time - removed duplicate post - please hit submit once and only once - The Queen

[This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 11-23-2003]

{Note from Adminnemooseus - In this extreme case of message posting duplication, I have deleted most of the ones that AdminAsgara had edited down to her "duplicate post" messages}

[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 11-24-2003]


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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1790 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 32 of 213 (69293)
11-25-2003 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Yaro
11-23-2003 10:48 PM


The text says that they could possess those people, the chief intent in those days was servitude, for you to say rape reveals your hoped for bias. It does not say rape nor does it imply rape.

Yes God ordered children to be killed there is no way around that. You will never understand God or His book until you accept the fact that if God is God He has the right to take life. In the case of the people who occupied the promised land, God judged those people for rejecting Him, He gave them 40 years this is why the O.T. says that He did not permit them to be destroyed earlier because "their iniqiuty was not yet full" . To be continued......


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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1790 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 50 of 213 (70649)
12-02-2003 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Yaro
11-25-2003 10:40 PM


I apologize for not responding, thank you for not quitting.
The real reason I quit this thread was because I will not agree that God condoned rape much less ordered it. We kind of went back and forth on it, we finally you "conceded" that the text "could imply" which softens your hardline stance that He outright ordered rape.

OK, Yaro with this now established I will say that it COULD be misconstrued that the passages you posted COULD imply that the order God gave COULD be misinterpreted that He was giving a green light to forced marriage.

In fact, the passages in question assume the virgins would welcome the option of life rather than die with the people God ordered to be killed.

The broader issue that is being smothered here is that we are judging an ancient era by the gauge of our standards in the 21st century.
Am I rationalizing rape ? No, rape is always evil in any era this is not a matter of opinion.

What I am saying is that the O.T. is misunderstood, the issue is what does it all mean ? Why did God, in His book record these things ?
IF the Bible is the word of God and that is the CLAIM, then WHY did God tell on Himself and allow such events to be recorded ? Of all the things that could of been told God deliberately recorded many things that many people hate Him for and thus reject Him they say "I would never worship a god like this"

Again I say WHY did God tell on Himself and record the horror of the O.T. which is very unflattering to Him ? God very well knows that the written word will be scrutinized by this modern intellectual generation and that things like the killing of children will make people reject Him , but He did it on purpose, He made sure what is written in the O.T. was preserved for everyone to know.

The answer to these questions can only be answered by a person who understands the message of the Bible, the entire Bible.

Yaro, are you familiar with the O.T. event where the prophet was insulted by a group of children and the horror that followed ?

Why don't you argue against the unfairness of happened and I will answer you , and then you will begin to understand WHY God told on Himself. What do you say ?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1790 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 51 of 213 (70650)
12-02-2003 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Yaro
11-25-2003 10:40 PM


Typo: should read "when finally......"

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1790 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 52 of 213 (70654)
12-02-2003 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Tsegamla
11-22-2003 9:36 PM


Yes, thank you for this response. I understand what you said, your attitude is rare among atheists or maybe I just have had bad luck and have encountered the bad element which exists in any given good.
I like what you said - all of it. You are obviously impacted by worthless relgious fundementalists that turn people off to God. Thanks for your candid words.

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1790 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 61 of 213 (71292)
12-05-2003 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Yaro
12-03-2003 2:11 AM


I do want to reply to your point/question before we go off on the new one.

You are really asking if God is consistent in His judgments, if this is what you are asking whether rhetorical or outright then the answer is found in the context of the circumstances.

You have persistently hammered one constant point - that God ordered and condoned rape. Then you softened your stance and admitted that the verses you posted could IMPLY rape.

I say this is a deduction that you want to make to fit a previous belief that you brought into the discussion. You already know what I have said concerning this debate. May I refer you to what {and I don't believe that I am doing this} fellow member ConsequenAtheist said in their reply. It was a very intelligent response of which I can endorse.

The key to understanding {as opposed to agreement} the God of the O.T. is the overall context: Man is separated from the source of life {God} because of the failure of Adam and Eve in the garden. The Bible doesn't debate the fairness of all humanity bearing the punishment of Adam - it just declares it. Next context: Is God's law, the covenant He gave to Moses, which said covenant reveals God's standard of righteousness.

It is in this context that God makes His judgments upon mankind separated from Him and in constant violation of His law. The reason there is so much blood in the O.T. is because there is so much sin.

The one constant message that God weaves through His word is : Good or bad whatever He says will happen. The risk of defying God is the risk that He will give up on you and judge you according to His law which has the frequent penalty of death. This is the on going problem in the O.T. - humanity trifling with God.

If God keeps His word invariably in the bad things then the same is true in the good things, this is what God wants known that He can be trusted.

If anyone reading this is wondering about the responses I owe in the evolution topic they all will be posted tomorrow 12-6-03.


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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1790 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 65 of 213 (71410)
12-06-2003 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Rand Al'Thor
12-06-2003 1:12 AM


Re: Message of the Bible
Where did I say Jesus loves us all ? Where did I mention Jesus ?

Your obvious hatred reveals that no matter what I say will have an effect towards understanding the Bible. Your mind is made up so there is nothing to debate


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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1790 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 67 of 213 (71413)
12-06-2003 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by AdminAsgara
12-06-2003 10:01 PM


Yes Admin I apologize - thank you.

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1790 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 73 of 213 (72866)
12-14-2003 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Yaro
12-09-2003 12:52 AM


I have no excuse for abandoning this topic. Sorry.

Yaro, believe it or not I feel the exact same way you do about the horror of the O.T. But you will NEVER understand until you understand what happened in the Garden of Eden, this is the context from which all the horror is derived.

Because of the failure of Adam and Eve all of mankind is born separated from God, we are born in a state of what is called "original sin". This state of being has God against us from the moment we are born and the Bible does not debate the fairness of this it simply declares it.

The serpent, who is representative of Satan got what he wanted. Adam and Eve ate from the tree and instantly two things happened. 1) Adam/Eve gained knowledge of good and evil, 2) Satan gained temporary ownership of the world and its inhabitants.

God, in response to Adam/Eve disobedience barred them from the Garden which represents their connection to the Source of Life - God. From that day forward they began dying. God in mercy delayed his judgement and killed an animal to cover them which is the first type of what Jesus would do on the cross thousands of years later. The point being that blood must be spilled to atone for sin.

Adam/Eve and their descendants now armed with the knowledge of good and evil, and banished from the Source of Life, and living in the domain of Satan begin to demonstrate that having knowledge of good and evil apart from God guarantees endlessly embracing the evil. There is no power in this knowledge to make or compel a person to choose the good, this is why God did not want them to have it.

Through Moses, God adds His law, which said law is a standard of right and wrong , good and evil. Again, what is the first thing that happens when Moses comes down from the Mount (Sinai) ? He takes the tablets that contained the Ten Commandmaents and smashes them in anger as a response to seeing what the people have been doing since he was gone. This typifies what man does with God's law : he breaks it immediately. Why ? Because there is no power in the knowledge of good and evil to choose the good over the evil. Man is still separated from God living under the jurisdiction of Satan.

This is the context for all the horror of the O.T.

God wants it known that He meant what He said in the Garden of Eden - "if you touch of the fruit of the tree ....you will surely die"

God has the right to judge people in this context and He does.

Over 3 million people who came out of Egypt during the Exodus died in the wilderness and never made it to the promised land (except for 2 and persons under 19 years of age) All of these people were God's people who died for not believing what God said about inheriting the promise land.

God wants it known that whatever He says will come to pass - that you can trust Him invariably.

What about those children who insulted the Prophet and got killed by the bears ?

The Prophet spoke for God. He was the most feared person wherever he went. When the Prophet spoke it was equivalent to God Himself speaking. The Prophet reacted angrily to the childrens taunts and cursed them. Then the bears came out and devoured them.

God wants it known that whatever He says comes to pass - even to the hurt of those innocent children. I realize the obvious "couldn't God teach His lesson without having to kill children" I guess not - if you think about it objectively it really gets His point across. Even if the Prophet cursed them in the heat of an embarrassing moment God kept the word spoken by his prophet.

God wants it known that whatever He says will happen - this is why He told on Himself and allowed this event to be recorded in His book. God could of easily omitted this from the record and no one today would ever know. But He didn't because He wants it known that whatever He says will happen.

When a person ascertains and realizes that God does what He says, that He can be trusted, this gives a person the basis to have faith.

God wants it known that if He without variation keeps His word in things pertaining to hurt/evil the negative (if you will) THEN HOW MUCH MORE will He keep His word in all the good things.

God wants it known that His Son is the Second Adam who finished His course and defeated Satan, and that on this basis God can now pour out the goodness promised in the New Testsament to everyone who looks to Him by faith and trusts that He will do what He says.

Source of theology information : Dr.Gene Scott


This message is a reply to:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1790 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 81 of 213 (76408)
01-03-2004 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Stormdancer
01-03-2004 12:04 PM


Re: Understanding the garden of eden.
Thank you for this comprehensive reply.

I would like to point out that this entire essay begins with an assumption of bias, this bias assumes the creation account a MYTH.

This assumption of myth is then evidenced by the similarities in other civiizations fact or fiction that contain a "center of being" like the Tree of Life or the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Why is the creation account of Genesis assumed a myth ?

The CLAIM of Genesis is that it is the PROTECTED account of what happened, protected by God as His version of how things were and went. (what validates the claim to be true is another subject, but for purposes of this discussion I ask it to be assumed.)

In this case, as in all cases when God is communicating what He wants known, His subjective views become the objective truth. Therefore if the creation account of Genesis is true, then this would logically explain every other similar account fact or fiction. This also explains why these stories have common denominators and it explains their differences in that the Genesis account is the protected version of facts and the others are unguarded by God as they evolve over time and change.

The existence of similar stories in other civilizations fact or fiction and the threads of common denominators only say one thing : There is a source, a beginning of the central and common facts therein. That source is the account of Genesis from which all the others flow.

I believe my opponent wants to somehow connect the existence of stories and themes similar to the creation account in Genesis to also mean that the Garden of Eden is a myth. How does the existence of what your post laboriously references evidence the claims of Genesis to be a myth ?

Look forward to your response.


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