Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 63 (9019 total)
48 online now:
14174dm, AZPaul3, dwise1, nwr, PaulK, Phat (AdminPhat), Tangle (7 members, 41 visitors)
Newest Member: Ashles
Post Volume: Total: 882,584 Year: 230/14,102 Month: 230/294 Week: 122/102 Day: 13/22 Hour: 3/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Message of the Bible
P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 213 (77268)
01-09-2004 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
11-22-2003 2:52 PM


The CLAIM of the Bible is that it is the word of God.

I don't know of any verse in the bible which makes that claim.




2 Tim 3:16

Every scripture [is] divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness;

17

that the man of God may be complete, fully fitted to every good work.



My understanding of the word of God, it that it is a living spirit as opposed to text on printed paper.

I can see a lot of quoting of the word of God in text but I wouldn't call such quoting the word of God per se.



James 4:5

Think ye that the scripture speaks in vain?
Does the Spirit which has taken his abode in us desire enviously?


John 10:34

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35

If he called *them* gods to whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),

36

do ye say of him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am Son of God ?


I'd say the word of God is far to excellent to be reduced to text, ink on paper.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-22-2003 2:52 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 112 of 213 (77319)
01-09-2004 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Yaro
11-22-2003 2:58 PM


How are we supposed to understand God other than what is stated in the Bible.

Maybe you were provided an offering from God, but for some reason you declined it.


Mark 4:11

And he said to them, To you is given [to know] the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to them who are without, all things are done in parables , 12 that beholding they may behold and not see, and hearing they may hear and not understand, lest it may be, they should be converted and they should be forgiven.

God in the OT, is a murdering meglomaniac, in the NT he's a hippie. So, what ARE we supposed to think?

I suppose in the least it's a matter of perspective/intelligence.

Let's say you made a contract with a bank manager for a large loan.
Let's say for whatever reason you were unable to pay it back.
Chance's are you'll be in trouble, and the bank acts against you with vengeance. That's one kind of contract I'd rather not make.

Let's say you you made an agreement with a friend for a large loan.
Let's say for whatever reason you were unable to pay it back.
Chance's are your friend would let you continue paying back when you were able or if he's really good friend he'll say don't worry about paying it back.

Point, made any contracts lately? Bet you have!
See any contracts in verse, hint OT, NT.


Luke 16:13

No servant can serve two masters , for either he will hate the one and will love the other, or he will cleave to the one and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

That this us a consistent creator, who espouses consistent reliable moral guidelines when his Biblical nature portrays him as a bit of a pschizophrenic(sp)?

Guidelines! I tend to see them as laws in the OT, and commandments in the NT.

And what has God said that has come to pass? I have yet to find one thing. Most of the events in the Bible fail to stand up to scientific scrutany, and historical data. So what on earth has God ever said that can be known for sure has happend?

Have you heard, God has chosen a people?
Ever give consideration that Israel became a nation again about 60 years ago?


Mark 13:8

For nation shall rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be earthquakes in [different] places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these things [are the] beginnings of throes. 9 But *ye*, take heed to yourselves, for they shall deliver you up to sanhedrims and to synagogues: ye shall be beaten and brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony to them; 10 and the gospel must first be preached to all the nations.

It's been about 2000 years since John started preaching it, seems you haven't taken it to heart for some reason(s).

[This message has been edited by P e t e r, 01-09-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Yaro, posted 11-22-2003 2:58 PM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Yaro, posted 01-09-2004 12:20 PM P e t e r has responded

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 213 (77347)
01-09-2004 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Yaro
01-09-2004 12:20 PM


Nope. I read the bible, didn't understand what the fuss was about. End of story.

I'll take that as you declining that something who's source could be from God.

Myself I tend to look at the bible as a never ending story.

I don't understand this. Sorry, could you please spell it out for me? I don't see the relationship between banks and loans when it concerns the nature of god.

Simile: A figure of speech that expresses a resemblance between things of different kinds (usually formed with 'like' or 'as')

Your average Holy Bible is made up of two testaments.

Testament:

1 A profession of belief
2 A legal document declaring a person's wishes regarding the disposal of their property when they die
3 Strong evidence for something

Infact, if you are saying that life is a loan of some kind, I would contest that your analogy is faulty.

Nope, trying to emphasize how we are bound to the contracts/agreements we make and the resulting outcomes.

How can laws or commandments be rutinely broken by the very people who are supposed to obey them, and get told its ok.

Idealy they should be kept, but some can't keep them or comphrehend that they ought to.


Hebrews 9;28

thus the Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear to those that look for him the second time without sin for salvation.

Chow for now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Yaro, posted 01-09-2004 12:20 PM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Yaro, posted 01-09-2004 12:56 PM P e t e r has not yet responded

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 213 (77482)
01-09-2004 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Yaro
01-09-2004 12:20 PM


After all, nobody has been able to tell me how god can make raping virgins an ok thing.

What verse are referring to?

Can God make men pillaging and looting inocent people a good thing?

Which pillaging and inocent people are you referring to?

Here is an exercise for you. Where does it say Isreal will become a nation in the bible? Find me the chapter and verse were it says that clear as day, and then I will belive it.

How about this;

Isai 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to acquire the remnant of his people which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall lift up a banner to the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel , and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Well, I'm still not following. What contract or agreement?

You mentioned earlier how you viewed God differently between the OT and NT.

Given they are two different covenants, dictates differences of how things operated. I used the loan simile between a banker or friend to highlight how results can differ.

Can god make rapeing and killing babys good?

Isai 13:16

And their infants shall be dashed in pieces before their eyes, their houses shall be rifled, and their women ravished.

Due to my lack of omniscience I couldn't accurately say.


Isai 14:32

And what shall be answered to the messengers of the nation? That Jehovah hath founded Zion, and the afflicted of his people find refuge in it.

That's my question. It merits a yes or a no.

I don't have all the data pertaining to the situation therefore a yes or no is not merited.

On a side note, do you condone fornicators/adulterers removing their unborn fetus's from the womb and/or trashing them.

Also, consider that this is exactly what god orders people to do on several occasions thrughout the bible.

I wonder if at some point all those ancient people back then will get an opportunity to hear the gospel before the resurrection.

1 Peter 4:6

For to this [end] were the glad tidings preached to [the] dead also, that they might be judged, as regards men, after [the] flesh, but live, as regards God, after [the] Spirit.

Mark 16:15

And he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the glad tidings to all the creation. 16 He that believes and is baptised shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned .

Can't say I'm an expert on holiness and although it's somewhat foreign to mankind since time immemorial, it appears to high on someone's agenda in our universe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Yaro, posted 01-09-2004 12:20 PM Yaro has not yet responded

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 213 (77491)
01-09-2004 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Asgara
11-22-2003 8:44 PM


I can't speak for anyone else here, but I would settle for ANY evidence.

Asgara

[This message has been edited by P e t e r, 01-09-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Asgara, posted 11-22-2003 8:44 PM Asgara has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Asgara, posted 01-09-2004 11:18 PM P e t e r has responded
 Message 125 by crashfrog, posted 01-09-2004 11:23 PM P e t e r has not yet responded

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 213 (77501)
01-09-2004 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Asgara
01-09-2004 11:18 PM


You did write, "Any".

The authorities who issue money have given evidence of their trust in
God.


Romans 13:3

For rulers are not a terror to a good work, but to an evil [one]. Dost thou desire then not to be afraid of the authority? practise [what is] good, and thou shalt have praise from it; 4 for it is God's minister to thee for good. But if thou practisest evil, fear; for it bears not the sword in vain; for it is God's minister, an avenger for wrath to him that does evil.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Asgara, posted 01-09-2004 11:18 PM Asgara has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by crashfrog, posted 01-09-2004 11:35 PM P e t e r has responded
 Message 142 by sidelined, posted 01-10-2004 12:21 PM P e t e r has responded

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 213 (77506)
01-10-2004 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by crashfrog
01-09-2004 11:35 PM


Evidence
Bzzt! Argument from authority. What makes you think they know any more about God than you or I?

It's of no consequence who knows more or less.

It qualifies as evidence whether it has been established as fact or not.

Evidence;

1 Your basis for belief or disbelief; knowledge on which to base belief

2 An indication that makes something evident

3(law) all the means by which any alleged matter of fact whose truth is investigated at judicial trial is established or disproved


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by crashfrog, posted 01-09-2004 11:35 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by crashfrog, posted 01-10-2004 12:26 AM P e t e r has responded

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 213 (77509)
01-10-2004 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Asgara
01-09-2004 11:39 PM


Not to mention that this isn't even evidence of their belief....just of their willingness to make others think they believe.

So you're basically saying they are liars by giving false evidence.
Interesting, care to elaborate why they would want to do that or how your evidence in your statement is truthfull?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Asgara, posted 01-09-2004 11:39 PM Asgara has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by crashfrog, posted 01-10-2004 12:24 AM P e t e r has not yet responded
 Message 132 by Asgara, posted 01-10-2004 12:26 AM P e t e r has not yet responded

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 213 (77517)
01-10-2004 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by crashfrog
01-10-2004 12:26 AM


evidence
Like I said, it's not evidence of God,

Absolutely incorrect. Testimony qualifies as evidence.


John 5:37

And the Father who has sent me himself has borne witness concerning me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor have seen his shape, 38 and ye have not his word abiding in you; for whom *he* hath sent, him ye do not believe .

it's evidence that there exist people who believe in God.

Could be more to it than that.


Mat 5:8

Blessed the pure in heart , for *they* shall see God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by crashfrog, posted 01-10-2004 12:26 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by crashfrog, posted 01-10-2004 12:54 AM P e t e r has responded

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 213 (77524)
01-10-2004 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by crashfrog
01-10-2004 12:54 AM


To the contrary. Testimony is dismissied if uncorraborated by physical evidence.

I can see that in Law courts. However most of world's daily occurences of evidences happen outside courts of law. Did you read the first definition of evidence I gave earlier?

Where's the physical evidence of God to corraborate the personal testimony?

It's my understanding God is more on the spiritual side of things.
Did you read the verse about Jesus, he is quoted to of been sent by God in the flesh to testify about God.


John 8:16

And if also I judge, my judgment is true, because I am not alone, but I and the Father who has sent me. 17 And in your law too it is written that the testimony of two men is true: 18 I am [one] who bear witness concerning myself, and the Father who has sent me bears witness concerning me.

And what about my testimony? I say there is no God.

Seems we have a conflict of evidence.

Could be they're just liars. How do you know?

Proof is somewhat scarce, I've yet to come across a person who believes in Jesus who professes there is no God.

Statistically, in this criteria the evidence favours there is a God.


1 John 4:2

Hereby ye know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses Jesus Christ come in flesh is of God;

3

and every spirit which does not confess Jesus Christ come in flesh is not of God: and this is that [power] of the antichrist , [of] which ye have heard that it comes, and now it is already in the world.

Kind of hard to discern any physical evidence without having a spirit
of some type.

[This message has been edited by P e t e r, 01-10-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by crashfrog, posted 01-10-2004 12:54 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by crashfrog, posted 01-10-2004 1:56 AM P e t e r has responded

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 213 (77530)
01-10-2004 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by crashfrog
01-10-2004 1:56 AM


I haven't claimed it's not evidence. Simply that it's not evidence for what you think it is.

You're getting confusing. I take testimonies as evidence, I'd say you're the one who doesn't think testimony for God is evidence for God.

As yet you have no rebuttal to this point.

I'd say I've given more than one, and you can add the one above to the rest of them.

When are you going to stop pretending that evidence that people believe in God has anything to do with evidence for God?

I'm not pretending. You shouldn't be making inacurate statements of my position in these matters.

I can present evidence that people believe in Santa Claus. That doesn't make Santa Claus exist.

But it does present evidence that Santa exists.

Statistically most people don't believe in your God, so by your standards of evidence, your God does not exist.

Could you provide a link for your statistics.

Nowhere have I mentioned that the number of evidences or not determines existance of God. Once again you are making an inacurate statement about my position.

As of late, it doesn't look to me being truthful is one of your strong points.


Proverbs 12:17

He that uttereth truth sheweth forth righteousness; but a false witness deceit.

See how stupid this is?

In a certain way.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by crashfrog, posted 01-10-2004 1:56 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Asgara, posted 01-10-2004 2:45 AM P e t e r has responded
 Message 145 by crashfrog, posted 01-10-2004 2:03 PM P e t e r has responded

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 213 (77572)
01-10-2004 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Asgara
01-10-2004 2:45 AM


These will give you evidence of people's beliefs, though not evidence of whether or not their beliefs are true

Interesting, by faith do you accept the evidence of those statistics as accurate?

I'd have a hard time establishing that evidence as true.

Does appear though most have faith in God of some type.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Asgara, posted 01-10-2004 2:45 AM Asgara has not yet responded

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 213 (77787)
01-11-2004 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by sidelined
01-10-2004 12:21 PM


I think we can see the problem here. Asgara and others are asking for independant verification of God's existence seperate from the bible while you are showing us independant verification of the existence of belief in God seperate from the bible.

sidelined

I haven't read all of Asgara's posts in this topic or the one asking for independant verification, but the one I did read at the beginning of this topic and responded to, Asgara asked for "ANY" evidence.

Perhaps you could supply the post where Asgara asked for independant verification to help clear up this problem.

I'm more inclined to see those evidences I posted as that which serves as evidence as opposed to "independant verification of the existence of belief in God seperate from the bible". Also, I used some bible verses as evidence.

One of the definitions of



Evidence;

Your basis for belief or disbelief; knowledge on which to base belief.



If I were to get a book from a university on evolution and claim that a section of that book is proof of the claims that are made within the book you would not allow that to be the sole basis of agreeing with the book would you?

Correct. However I'm not supplying proof, I'm supplying evidences.

You would follow up and check out to make sure that the lines of resoning within the book have evidence seperate from the claims made.

Chances are the technigues or technical jargon I would need to employ to verify those evidences would be beyond my capabilities or desires.

Nor would you allow the opinions of people who support the claims made be given as evidence that the claims are true correct?

Incorrect. There is always the possibility that those claims are true. Not until proven false could I not allow those claims.

In the same way we ask that independant evidence of the biblical God be shown in other books seperate from those shown in the bible.

That shouldn't be a problem, try going to a christian book store.

You cannot use testimony of people as sole evidence either since people have many different ways to be in error.

Basically I'd have to disagree. Always remember, just because there could be error about doesn't rule out truth is there also.

There are occasions when all you have is testimonies.

Testimony;

1 A solemn statement made under oath

2 An assertion offering firsthand authentication of a fact

3 Something that serves as evidence


1 John 5:10

He that believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself; he that does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness which God has witnessed concerning his Son.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by sidelined, posted 01-10-2004 12:21 PM sidelined has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Asgara, posted 01-11-2004 3:00 PM P e t e r has responded
 Message 157 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 01-11-2004 3:20 PM P e t e r has responded

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 213 (77801)
01-11-2004 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by crashfrog
01-10-2004 2:03 PM


I'd say you're the one who doesn't think testimony for God is evidence for God. P e t e r

Yes, of course it isn't. Just as testimony for Santa Claus isn't evidence of Santa Claus. crashfrog

I'd have to say you don't have a complete understanding of evidence.

Earlier you made this statement;

I can present evidence that people believe in Santa Claus. That doesn't make Santa Claus exist.

I'm guessing those people are on the little side of age.

What a world of credulity you must live in! Apparently you're willing to take all testimony at face-value. Let's get rid of the criminal justice system! All we have to do is ask them if they committed a crime or not.

A world of credulity does have various subtleties such as reliability of someone's history of truthfulness.

Imagine parents actually telling their young children there is a Santa Claus without having a belief for Santa.

I suppose the criminal justice system could be considered in a way a temporary fix to an ongoing problem whose solution is yet to be ultimately settled.


Rev 21:8

But to the fearful and unbelieving, [and sinners], and those who make themselves abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part [is] in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

As you can see, Christians are only 33% of the world's believers. The majority of humans are non-Christian. Surely this is not a surprise to you?

Correct.

Then maybe you can explain what you meant when you said:

Statistically, in this criteria the evidence favours there is a God.

Once again you are making an inacurate statement about my position

My statement should be taken in relation to my statement immediately prior, which was;

I've yet to come across a person who believes in Jesus who professes there is no God.

To elaborate, say I came across a hundred people who believe in Jesus and none of them told me they didn't believe in God, statisically the evidence favours there is a God.

Why you would say I equate that with all people of various faiths and dispositions where the majority is correct by virtue of size, is beyond me.

Then please make an effort to communicate better. I can hardly be blamed if you're unwilling/unable to effectively communicate eactly what it is you're trying to say.

OK.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by crashfrog, posted 01-10-2004 2:03 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by crashfrog, posted 01-11-2004 3:41 PM P e t e r has responded

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 213 (77805)
01-11-2004 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Rand Al'Thor
01-11-2004 3:20 PM


I am a green alien from Mars.

Peter by your standards this is evidence.

Correct. On behalf of everybody, Welcome to Earth

Question:

When/how did you arrive?

[This message has been edited by P e t e r, 01-11-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 01-11-2004 3:20 PM Rand Al'Thor has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by sidelined, posted 01-11-2004 3:37 PM P e t e r has responded

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021