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Author Topic:   Message of the Bible
P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 213 (77823)
01-11-2004 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Asgara
01-11-2004 3:00 PM


In a court of law, if Sally said John committed the murder of Ed and the ONLY "evidence" of this is Sally's say so, it won't wash. If the court cannot find evidence of John's existence, no birth record, no ssn, noone who has ever seen John, except for Sally's assertions, then the court is not going to let be entered as evidence of John's culpability.
You're probably right.
Actually, the post you responded to was a response to WT saying that no matter how much evidence we were shown of god's existence we would still not believe. I asked for "any" evidence of god's existence. All you have given me is evidence of people's beliefs in gods existence, not the evidence that led them to this belief.
Perhaps you've have heard at one time or another someone give the reasons why they believe in God. Probably quite few different angles on that.
I been trying to think of my first evidences of why I believe God exists.
For now, the one that comes to mind is when I was in elementry school I got a Gideons bible and took it contents as true.
Luke 10:22
All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is but the Father, and who the Father is but the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son is pleased to reveal [him]. 23 And having turned to the disciples privately he said, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see.
[This message has been edited by P e t e r, 01-11-2004]
fixed minor formating probs - The Queen
[This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 01-11-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Asgara, posted 01-11-2004 3:00 PM Asgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by crashfrog, posted 01-11-2004 4:40 PM P e t e r has replied

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 163 of 213 (77824)
01-11-2004 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by sidelined
01-11-2004 3:37 PM


P e t e r
Rand Al'Thor is not a green alien.
Peter by your standards this is evidence.
Which evidence is correct? Mine or Rand Al'Thors'?
Ummm, another conflict of evidence.
Perhaps Rand Al'Thor can help us out, is sidelined lying or telling the truth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by sidelined, posted 01-11-2004 3:37 PM sidelined has not replied

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 165 of 213 (77836)
01-11-2004 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by crashfrog
01-11-2004 3:41 PM


How useful is evidence if it can support anything, even things that are not true?
If I'm reading your statement right, evidence can support anything, proof fulfills the accuracy of the evidence.
What does age have to do with it?
Probably because youngsters tend to be trusting towards their parents.
How? What if you asked 100 atheists?
100 atheists who believe in Jesus but not God, that could be tough.
If that could happen, statistically, in this criteria the evidence favours there is no God.
What does asking 100 people who you already know are going to say the same thing prove anything?
I'd have to say it doesn't prove, but as I stated earlier it favours.
Do the words "response bias" mean anything to you? If not then it's clear you don't have the training to make statistical judgements.
Let me check on that.
Response bias — In any study in which responses of some sort (e.g., answers to set questions) are required of PARTICIPANTS, response bias exists if, independently of the effect of any experimental manipulation, the participants are more likely to respond in one way than in another (e.g., more likely, in a multiple-choice task, to choose Option A than Option B).
OK, I'm not an expert on that, but I'm of the opinion when you read something I write you have a tendency to translate it into something I don't mean to write.
Back to that communication problem again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by crashfrog, posted 01-11-2004 3:41 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 167 of 213 (77842)
01-11-2004 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by crashfrog
01-11-2004 4:40 PM


Yeah, they get you at an early age. Like drug pushers.
An unfair commentary.
When I got my bible at school, drug pushers wasn't even a possibility of the mind.
Perhaps these days at school bibles are prohibited and drug pushers are a problem.
Proverbs 22:6 Train up the child according to the tenor of his way, and when he is old he will not depart from it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by crashfrog, posted 01-11-2004 4:40 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 183 of 213 (78151)
01-13-2004 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Thom
01-13-2004 12:49 AM


What I dont understand is God's policy change.
I think it was more of a completion of contract.

John 19:30 When therefore Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished ; and having bowed his head, he delivered up his spirit.
He went from being an incessantly vengeful micromanager in the old testament to a laissez faire leftist in the new testament.
More micromangement;

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, that every idle word which men shall say, they shall render an account of it in judgment-day: 37 for by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Not a laissez faire leftist.

Mark 16:15 And he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the glad tidings to all the creation. 16 He that believes and is baptised shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned .
And even though the bible part 2 says that such a thing occurred, it dosen't explain why God was compelled to rewrite the rules.
Old Testament prophecy;

Jer 31:31 Behold, days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day of my taking them by the hand, to lead them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith Jehovah. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and will write it in their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
New Testament fulfillment;

1 Cor 11:24 and having given thanks broke [it], and said, This is my body, which [is] for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 In like manner also the cup, after having supped, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye shall drink [it], in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye shall eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye announce the death of the Lord, until he come.
If this was all part of the master plan from the outset, Genesis, Exodous, Leviticus, Numbers, Dueterium, etc...are mute regarding that notion.
See demuting verse above, Jer 31:31
Moreover, why would the "nature" of the creator change over time?
I wouldn't say His nature changed as much as all things are unfolding as planned.

Heb 1:10 And, *Thou* in the beginning , Lord, hast founded the earth, and works of thy hands are the heavens. 11 They shall perish, but *thou* continuest still; and they all shall grow old as a garment, 12 and as a covering shalt thou roll them up, and they shall be changed; but *thou* art the Same, and thy years shall not fail.
Presumeably perfection, as that which is attributed to God, is not contingent and atlerable over time, or space, or anything else.
Apparently you're drawing conclusions from looking at only a portion of the overall picture.

Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and that they should go in by the gates into the city. 15 Without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loves and makes a lie.
[This message has been edited by P e t e r, 01-14-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Thom, posted 01-13-2004 12:49 AM Thom has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by AdminBrian, posted 01-13-2004 12:02 PM P e t e r has replied

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 213 (78221)
01-13-2004 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by AdminBrian
01-13-2004 12:02 PM


Can Do
No problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by AdminBrian, posted 01-13-2004 12:02 PM AdminBrian has not replied

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 186 of 213 (78321)
01-14-2004 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Yaro
11-28-2003 11:34 AM


Paradise and 70 virgins
CAN YOU, OR ANYONE EXPLAIN TO ME, WHY THE SOLDIERS GET TO KEEP THE VIRGINS (NOT BABYS, ANIMALS, OLD FOLK ETC.) "FOR THEMSELVES"?
Yaro
Depending on which translation you use, it seems the soldiers took it upon themselves and were reprimanded for it.
Young's Literal Translation
Numbers 31:14

and Moses is wroth against the inspectors of the force, chiefs of the thousands, and chiefs of the hundreds, who are coming in from the host of the battle. 15 And Moses saith unto them, `Have ye kept alive every female? 16 lo, they--they have been to the sons of Israel, through the word of Balaam, to cause a trespass against Jehovah in the matter of Peor, and the plague is in the company of Jehovah. 17 `And now, slay ye every male among the infants, yea, every woman known of man by the lying of a male ye have slain; 18 and all the infants among the women, who have not known the lying of a male, ye have kept alive for yourselves. 19 `And ye, encamp ye at the outside of the camp seven days--any who hath slain a person, and any who hath come against a pierced one, ye cleanse yourselves on the third day, and on the seventh day--ye and your captives;
SO, PLEASE, SOMEBODY, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, TELL ME WHY THEY KEEP THE VIRGINS, AND KILL EVERYTHING ELSE, IF NOT FOR SEXUAL PURPOSES!!!!!??????
I don't have the finer details, but back then those under the law, the act of adultery was punishable by death.
Wouldn't be the first time someone tried to beat the system.
>
[This message has been edited by P e t e r, 01-14-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Yaro, posted 11-28-2003 11:34 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Yaro, posted 01-14-2004 12:12 PM P e t e r has replied

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 189 of 213 (78411)
01-14-2004 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Stormdancer
01-05-2004 11:09 AM


Re: How is allowing someone to be deceived, HONEST?
GE 3:1-7, 22-24 God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent,
stormdancer
From how I read it, Eve was deceived and I didn't see the part where He allows the deception.
God says Thou shalt not kill but then he ,kills every living thing on the face of the earth.
How is breaking you own given commandments HONEST?
The law was given to the Jews, not Himself. You'll notice it says "thou" and not, we.
As a parent (God being our Parent ) , would he not set an EXAMPLE?
I reckon if mankind was holy as God, there would be no problems.
But no, first thing you know somebody kills their own brother.
Suppose you had two sons, and one of them killed the other, what would you do?
Well, if the lord hardened their hearts is this not manipulating the out come?
How is this HONESTY?
Ahh, war. Generally being honest with your adversary puts you at a disadvantage resulting in failure/death.
The first of these that I wish to deal with is the account in Judges 20. He is particularly concerned about two verses, 18 and 23, in which Israel asked counsel of God. God first told Judah to go against Benjamin, and they were defeated. They then asked God if they should persist in their actions. God told them to continue, and again they were severely defeated. This, we are told, is proof that God lies.
If you came to me and asked if you could jump off a cliff, and I said sure and you came back mangled, how is it proof that I lied?
In 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11, we read, "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion,
that they should believe
a lie."
Well, that is FAIR, YES?


Gal 6:7



Be not deceived: God is not mocked ; for whatever a man shall sow, that also shall he reap.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Stormdancer, posted 01-05-2004 11:09 AM Stormdancer has not replied

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 213 (78430)
01-14-2004 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Yaro
01-14-2004 12:12 PM


Were does it say that?
Can you be more specific?
The clensing? That was comon practice, its even in leviticus. You have to clense after bloodshed etc. Besides earlyer on before teh sige moses explicitly tells them to keep the virgins.Your argument makes no sense
In the verse supplied it specifically refers the reason beside bloodshed.
Have ye kept alive every female? 16 lo, they--they have been to the sons of Israel, through the word of Balaam, to cause a trespass against Jehovah in the matter of Peor, and the plague is in the company of Jehovah.
Do you still think it was God's idea or the soldiers idea to keep the virgins?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Yaro, posted 01-14-2004 12:12 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Yaro, posted 01-14-2004 1:05 PM P e t e r has replied

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 213 (78639)
01-15-2004 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Yaro
01-14-2004 1:05 PM


Yaro,
Perhaps some of the soldiers were looking for wives.

Deut 21:10
When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and Jehovah thy God delivereth them into thy hands, and thou hast taken captives of them, 11 and thou seest among the captives a woman of beautiful form, and hast a desire unto her, and takest her as thy wife; 12 then thou shalt bring her home to thy house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; 13 and she shall put the clothes of her captivity from off her, and shall abide in thy house, and bewail her father and mother a full month, and afterwards thou mayest go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. 14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go according to her desire; but thou shalt in no wise sell her for money; thou shalt not treat her as a slave , because thou hast humbled her.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Yaro, posted 01-14-2004 1:05 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Yaro, posted 01-15-2004 10:52 AM P e t e r has replied

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 213 (78655)
01-15-2004 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Yaro
01-15-2004 10:52 AM


Some definite cultural differences back then.
Not to mention the fact that back in those days, takeing someone to be your wife simply ment you had sex with her.
I think there is a bit more to it than your claimed fact.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not desire thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not desire thy neighbour's wife , nor his bondman, nor his handmaid, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbour's.
If thou buy a Hebrew bondman, six years shall he serve; and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. 3 If he came in alone, he shall go out alone: if he had a wife , then his wife shall go out with him.
And if a man seduce a virgin that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall certainly endow her, to be his wife . 17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall weigh money according to the dowry of virgins.
And thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife , to become unclean with her.
And a man that committeth adultery with a man's wife , who committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife , --the adulterer and the adulteress shall certainly be put to death
And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is infamy: they shall burn him and them with fire, that there be no infamy among you.
etc etc,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Yaro, posted 01-15-2004 10:52 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Yaro, posted 01-15-2004 12:12 PM P e t e r has replied

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 201 of 213 (78664)
01-15-2004 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Yaro
01-15-2004 12:12 PM


Simplicity appears to have advantages, even when those things are not simple.
So the knife cut both ways, you sleep with a girl, your stuck with her. etc.
Stuck in a bad way, even if not with her in person.

Proverbs 7:25
Let not thy heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths: 26 for she hath cast down many wounded, and all slain by her were strong. 27 Her house is the way to Sheol, going down to the chambers of death.
1 Cor 6:16 Do ye not know that he [that is] joined to the harlot is one body? for the two, he says, shall be one flesh.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by docpotato, posted 01-15-2004 12:55 PM P e t e r has replied
 Message 205 by Stormdancer, posted 01-16-2004 3:04 PM P e t e r has not replied

P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 213 (78672)
01-15-2004 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by docpotato
01-15-2004 12:55 PM


I didn't justify it.
I gave a verse indicating that captives of war could be subjected to the captors desires in the context of persmission given in verse.
Do you disagree with any of this?
Myself, I find it all somewhat foreign.

This message is a reply to:
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P e t e r
Inactive Member


Message 204 of 213 (78801)
01-16-2004 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by sidelined
01-12-2004 10:16 PM


sidelined, a few answers to your questions.
Let me get this straight Jesus is God ,God is Jesus.Correct?
Scripturally that would be incorrect.
There are no verses in the bible that say "Jesus is God" or "God is Jesus" in those exact words.
About the closest you'll get is; Jesus is the son of God.
The later tends to signify some type of separation consisting of two.

Mark 1:1 Beginning of the glad tidings of Jesus Christ, Son of God ;
Just what sacrifice did He make?
Blood.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood , that of the [new] covenant, that shed for many for remission of sins.
If He was Immortal to begin with then He has no death to face.
By immortal if you mean that he's not subject to death, I'd say you're incorrect. (again)
Mark 10:32
And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem, and Jesus was going on before them; and they were amazed, and were afraid as they followed. And taking the twelve again to [him], he began to tell them what was going to happen to him: 33 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man shall be delivered up to the chief priests and to the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death , and shall deliver him up to the nations: 34 and they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him; and after three days he shall rise again.
John 10:17
On this account the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have authority to lay it down and I have authority to take it again. I have received this commandment of my Father.
Exactly what do you suppose happens to the sins He takes from you? How does he suffer?

1 Peter 2:21
For to this have ye been called; for Christ also has suffered for you, leaving you a model that ye should follow in his steps: 22 who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth; 23 who, [when] reviled, reviled not again; [when] suffering, threatened not; but gave [himself] over into the hands of him who judges righteously; 24 who himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, in order that, being dead to sins , we may live to righteousness: by whose stripes ye have been healed.
Does He spend time in hell for you or what?

Acts 2:30
Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn to him with an oath, of the fruit of his loins to set upon his throne; 31 he, seeing [it] before, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither has he been left in hades nor his flesh seen corruption. 32 This Jesus has God raised up, whereof all *we* are witnesses.
Hope you find this helpful in your perspective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by sidelined, posted 01-12-2004 10:16 PM sidelined has not replied

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