Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8945 total)
43 online now:
Newest Member: ski zawaski
Post Volume: Total: 865,300 Year: 20,336/19,786 Month: 733/2,023 Week: 241/392 Day: 101/53 Hour: 0/5


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Message of the Bible
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1360 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 16 of 213 (68654)
11-22-2003 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Yaro
11-22-2003 7:04 PM


Reply to Yaro
Your reply to my last topic completely misquoted me . Nowhere did I say or admit that God ordered the rape of anyone - YOU DID , you are the one who leveled that lie. What all you OldTestament haters refuse to understand is that it is your sense of morality that is perverted and twisted. You see no evil except when it comes to God. He has the right to kill anyone for any reason at any time period. Because you disagree with that you instantly leap to the conclusion that He must not exist. Where do you get your subjective views of how God must be ?The issue is , Why did He tell on Himself and include the horrors of the O.T. ? Don't you think God knows that many accounts and events recorded in His book would be found ghastly by the modern mind ? Of course He did, He runs the risk of being misunderstood {which He has} in order to have the record in place so a God ordained person can explain it , that is the way God works. The only problem is we have a modern world that refuses to listen to the interpretation of the scriptures, we have a modern world that places God on trial when that God does something that conflicts with their subjective beliefs.
You atheists love to brand anything contrary to your own beliefs as irrational which is a polite way of saying you are crazy. You do not want God to exist because you do not want a boss, it wouldnt matter how much evidence there was you all still wouldnt believe. The established religious community of Jesus day had the Son in their very presence and they still didnt believe, the same is true today with the established religious community of our day - the fundementalists. They dont believe either, they believe in a code of conduct while adding the name of Jesus. If these two groups refuse to believe how can a bunch of athiests even think of it. My ultimate point is that you are the crazy ones , christianity is esoteric controlled by a selective God and I nor does God ever apologize for this. One last thing, if you want evidence concerning God and the claims in the Bible then start reading books like "Who moved the stone", or listen to Dr. Gene Scott give the evidence of the resurrection of Christ at his website {real player}.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Yaro, posted 11-22-2003 7:04 PM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Asgara, posted 11-22-2003 8:44 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded
 Message 18 by Tsegamla, posted 11-22-2003 9:36 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded
 Message 19 by Yaro, posted 11-23-2003 2:45 AM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Asgara
Member (Idle past 614 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 17 of 213 (68658)
11-22-2003 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Cold Foreign Object
11-22-2003 8:40 PM


Re: Reply to Yaro
You do not want God to exist because you do not want a boss, it wouldnt matter how much evidence there was you all still wouldnt believe.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I would settle for ANY evidence.

Maybe you could paraphrase the subject of the book you mention, give us the best evidence you think it provides.

------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-22-2003 8:40 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by P e t e r, posted 01-09-2004 11:06 PM Asgara has responded

Tsegamla
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 213 (68676)
11-22-2003 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Cold Foreign Object
11-22-2003 8:40 PM


Willowtree
You make it sound like atheists deem their subjective morality as absolute. It's not that I believe God violates some moral absolute code of conduct that I've created, it's just that the image the Bible paints of God doesn't seem to match up with what seems to be His work. God just has a very human feel to me and given that the Bible was written by men, it just feels like literature. I'm not extremely informed on the subject of Biblical contradiction, so I'm not able to provide specific examples, but it's not that God violates my moral code, it's that He violates His own moral code. Again, if that comment gets me branded as one who makes assertions and doesn't back them up, well, so be it; I'm just speaking about the general impression I get from the Bible and Christianity. Based on what I've seen and heard, Biblical conquest seems a lot like the Crusades to me. Just the very nature of the act seems to represent a hasty, violent God, which is contrary to what I've generally been preached about God. And if the Crusades were falsely carried out in God's name, why couldn't other violent conquests be similar and simply mistaken as the true will of God. Didn't Moses or someone warn about false prophets/false actions in God's name?

Anyway, again, I realize my backing is weak here. I'm just speaking from what I've read and heard at church and not as some sort've expert with all the answers.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-22-2003 8:40 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-02-2003 8:44 PM Tsegamla has not yet responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 19 of 213 (68709)
11-23-2003 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Cold Foreign Object
11-22-2003 8:40 PM


Re: Reply to Yaro
Your reply to my last topic completely misquoted me . Nowhere did I say or admit that God ordered the rape of anyone - YOU DID , you are the one who leveled that lie.

No, I didnt say that, the Bible did. Here id Gods commandment to Mosess´ army.

Num 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Num 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Now, you may argue that these things are ok because god said they were. Whatever god does, it dosnt matter. He is the messure of good and evil right?

How do you figure?

Supposedly we have the ability to judge right and worong, just as God does. Just read Genisis

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

We are like him, or them (we can get into that wierdness later). Thus we have the same knowledge of right and wrong that they do. So now why does god get special morality? Does might make right?

Now, why not adress some of these questions, and let us have a discussion concerning what you belive makes your god a GOOD god, and indeed a real and fair god.

You didn´t even adress my question about the indians, which I really would like a take on.

From genisis I can conclude that we have the same faculty for descerning good from evil as god. So, when I read numbers and read about baby killing, and virgin rapeing, I can conclude with that faculty that that kinda stuff just aint right. And if god sets the messure for morality, he does it not sobujectively as you claim we do, but rather arbitrearaly, at his whim. Thats kind of a stupid idea of god dont you think?

EDIT,

One more question willowtree. Why if I wanna know more, do I need to read someone elses opinion? Shouldent the Bible, Gods own word, speak for itsellf?

I have read the bible more than once, and it never struck me as divine. Its errors, and far fetched stories were amusing. Its philosophies intriguing, but never did it strike me as Gods work. So why do I need to read some humans work to prove god, when gods own work, the bible, fails to prove him to me?

[This message has been edited by Yaro, 11-23-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-22-2003 8:40 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-23-2003 6:28 PM Yaro has responded
 Message 27 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-23-2003 6:29 PM Yaro has not yet responded

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1360 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 20 of 213 (68819)
11-23-2003 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Yaro
11-23-2003 2:45 AM


Re: Reply to Yaro
The Bible does not say anywhere that God ordered the rape of anyone
topic over.
I do not know about the Indians, it is a great topic I agree.

The lesson of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is that God forbid them to eat it because He said so, because there is no power in having that knowledge to choose the good over the evil. The entire O.T. record from that point on proves this truth . Man sinning and failing with the knowledge . Nazi Germany was the most educated nation in history and they committed the Holocaust.

Your perspective on the O.T. is somewhat distorted, in that you simply believe that for God to be good He must be fair. Who decides what fair is ? Righteousness is whatever God does. The horror of the O.T. is God judging sinners according to His law , the same law He condemned His own Son with. This is a eternal subject....... until next time I have to go. Willowtree


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Yaro, posted 11-23-2003 2:45 AM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by crashfrog, posted 11-23-2003 6:44 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded
 Message 31 by Yaro, posted 11-23-2003 10:48 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1360 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 27 of 213 (68820)
11-23-2003 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Yaro
11-23-2003 2:45 AM


Re: Reply to Yaro
one last time - removed duplicate post - please hit submit once and only once - The Queen

[This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 11-23-2003]

{Note from Adminnemooseus - In this extreme case of message posting duplication, I have deleted most of the ones that AdminAsgara had edited down to her "duplicate post" messages}

[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 11-24-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Yaro, posted 11-23-2003 2:45 AM Yaro has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by NosyNed, posted 11-23-2003 6:32 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded
 Message 29 by Cthulhu, posted 11-23-2003 6:33 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8866
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 28 of 213 (68825)
11-23-2003 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Cold Foreign Object
11-23-2003 6:29 PM


Re: Reply to Yaro
Well you said it several time but
The Bible does not say anywhere that God ordered the rape of anyone

Doesn't explicitly answer:


Num 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
Num 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

It sure looks like that is exactly what was ordered.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-23-2003 6:29 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

Cthulhu
Member (Idle past 4164 days)
Posts: 273
From: Roe Dyelin
Joined: 09-09-2003


Message 29 of 213 (68826)
11-23-2003 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Cold Foreign Object
11-23-2003 6:29 PM


Re: Reply to Yaro
The Bible does not say anywhere that God ordered the rape of anyone
Did you even read the quotes?! It says that as plain as day! Yet another fundamentalist who is heavily into denial.

------------------
Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-23-2003 6:29 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 213 (68835)
11-23-2003 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Cold Foreign Object
11-23-2003 6:28 PM


Righteousness is whatever God does.

Do you believe that constitutes an appropriate and moral definition of "righteousness"?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-23-2003 6:28 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 31 of 213 (68879)
11-23-2003 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Cold Foreign Object
11-23-2003 6:28 PM


Again Willowtree, you hand wave my qyestions despite me showing explicit biblical evidence.

Please review my previous post, and atempt to adress the following issues if you can:

Num 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Num 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Now, here we have an explicit order from God to kill babies, and rape virgins.

Ok. So I'll make the question simple for you, was this a Good thing?

Even more bluntly, in this story, God said it was ok to kill babies, and rape virgins, correct?

Now, then, how come human morality easely tells me that killing inocents and rapeing young women is an unjustifiable act. And don't tell me that God is the standard of Morality because Genisis clearly indicates that Morality is something separete from God all together.

As I quoted hear:

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

How could knowing good and evil be a quality that makes us like god and his fellow gods, if good and evil is a quality made by god? That would be paradoxiacal, as then god would have to be self creating, negating the idea of an infinit god.

wouldnt you agree then that this quote tels us we have the same moral guage as god, by His own admition?

So, how then, can god make infantaside and rape Good?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-23-2003 6:28 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-25-2003 8:50 PM Yaro has responded

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1360 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 32 of 213 (69293)
11-25-2003 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Yaro
11-23-2003 10:48 PM


The text says that they could possess those people, the chief intent in those days was servitude, for you to say rape reveals your hoped for bias. It does not say rape nor does it imply rape.

Yes God ordered children to be killed there is no way around that. You will never understand God or His book until you accept the fact that if God is God He has the right to take life. In the case of the people who occupied the promised land, God judged those people for rejecting Him, He gave them 40 years this is why the O.T. says that He did not permit them to be destroyed earlier because "their iniqiuty was not yet full" . To be continued......


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Yaro, posted 11-23-2003 10:48 PM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Rei, posted 11-25-2003 9:12 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded
 Message 36 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 11-25-2003 10:27 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded
 Message 37 by Yaro, posted 11-25-2003 10:40 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Rei
Member (Idle past 5325 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 33 of 213 (69300)
11-25-2003 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Cold Foreign Object
11-25-2003 8:50 PM


quote:
The text says that they could possess those people, the chief intent in those days was servitude

Not true. "Rape and pillage" has long been the standard for warfare.

quote:
for you to say rape reveals your hoped for bias. It does not say rape nor does it imply rape.

Ah. So, killing all virgin males, all non-virgin males, all non-virgin females.... but keeping the virgin females, implies... no rape? Interesting logic there.

So, does God think that virgins are better servants than non-virgins or something? By the way, this hardly the only time in the bible that God endorses rape.

------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-25-2003 8:50 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 11-25-2003 9:38 PM Rei has not yet responded

ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 4550 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 34 of 213 (69306)
11-25-2003 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Rei
11-25-2003 9:12 PM


quote:
The text says that they could possess those people, the chief intent in those days was servitude
Not true. "Rape and pillage" has long been the standard for warfare.

The response seems just a bit too greasy. Do you have any basis for asserting that the intent was rape?

[This message has been edited by ConsequentAtheist, 11-25-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Rei, posted 11-25-2003 9:12 PM Rei has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-25-2003 10:15 PM ConsequentAtheist has not yet responded

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 213 (69317)
11-25-2003 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ConsequentAtheist
11-25-2003 9:38 PM


This is the second time in five minutes I've seen someone on this forum use the word "greasy" to describe a post. What the Hell is going on here? Was Trent Reznor made a moderator?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 11-25-2003 9:38 PM ConsequentAtheist has not yet responded

Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 213 (69325)
11-25-2003 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Cold Foreign Object
11-25-2003 8:50 PM


His unconditional love has one condition : that a person respond to it in a predetermined amount of time only known to God. The bare minimum that God asks is that a person acknowledge Him as God and to be thankful.

Um I just couldn't wrap my mind around this; his love is unconditional but still has a condition? Would you be so kind as to clarify this?

Yes God ordered children to be killed there is no way around that. You will never understand God or His book until you accept the fact that if God is God He has the right to take life.

But didn't god clearly state with the Ten Commandments that it is evil to murder? So isn't he by his own definition evil?

In the case of the people who occupied the promised land, God judged those people for rejecting Him, He gave them 40 years this is why the O.T. says that He did not permit them to be destroyed earlier because "their iniqiuty was not yet full" .

But before you stated that our rejection of god was a punishment for doubting him. So he is punishing them for being punished?

Please explain

PS: On the Hitler issue, how is Hitler’s genocide of the Jews any different from god’s genocide of non-believers??????

[This message has been edited by Rand Al'Thor, 11-25-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-25-2003 8:50 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019