Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8943 total)
32 online now:
Britton, dwise1, PaulK, Tangle (4 members, 28 visitors)
Newest Member: LaLa dawn
Post Volume: Total: 863,851 Year: 18,887/19,786 Month: 1,307/1,705 Week: 113/446 Day: 9/104 Hour: 2/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Message of the Bible
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 52 of 213 (70654)
12-02-2003 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Tsegamla
11-22-2003 9:36 PM


Yes, thank you for this response. I understand what you said, your attitude is rare among atheists or maybe I just have had bad luck and have encountered the bad element which exists in any given good.
I like what you said - all of it. You are obviously impacted by worthless relgious fundementalists that turn people off to God. Thanks for your candid words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Tsegamla, posted 11-22-2003 9:36 PM Tsegamla has not yet responded

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 4785 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 53 of 213 (70692)
12-03-2003 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Cold Foreign Object
12-02-2003 8:28 PM


In fact, the passages in question assume the virgins would welcome the option of life rather than die with the people God ordered to be killed.

Then how do you interpret the law in Duteronomy saying that you can keep townspeople in forced laboro or kill them all and take their women?

How about Jebesh-Giliad, that sounds like a "green light" for forced marrige?

The broader issue that is being smothered here is that we are judging an ancient era by the gauge of our standards in the 21st century.

Then how do we judge which laws apply today and which don't? Homosexuality for instance. Or the taboos around pre-merrital sex, after all we have birth controll now.

Also, this seems to imply that Gods version of right and wrong is variable, and arbitrary.

Yaro, are you familiar with the O.T. event where the prophet was insulted by a group of children and the horror that followed ?

Why don't you argue against the unfairness of happened and I will answer you , and then you will begin to understand WHY God told on Himself. What do you say ?

Well, I would say NO. You have yet to adress my questions above. You have not yet justified Gods actions in the incidents above. However, I assume you find this story familiar ground (Joralex deja vu).

So yes, I know the passage. I belive it was 2nd Kings: chapter 2, verses 23-24.

2Ki 2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

2Ki 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Ok, my argument is short. The kids didn't deserve it, 42 children died for calling Elija bald. That's pretty messed up.

What's your justification?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-02-2003 8:28 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Yaro, posted 12-05-2003 1:10 AM Yaro has responded
 Message 61 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-05-2003 8:26 PM Yaro has responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4785 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 54 of 213 (71111)
12-05-2003 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Yaro
12-03-2003 2:11 AM


*bump*

WT, lets talk about the bears.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Yaro, posted 12-03-2003 2:11 AM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Yaro, posted 12-05-2003 12:29 PM Yaro has not yet responded

Yaro
Member (Idle past 4785 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 55 of 213 (71205)
12-05-2003 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Yaro
12-05-2003 1:10 AM


*bump*

Anyone wanna talk about the bears or the virgins?

I don't mean to be anoying, but I really want to finalize this topic once and for all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Yaro, posted 12-05-2003 1:10 AM Yaro has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Chiroptera, posted 12-05-2003 12:54 PM Yaro has not yet responded
 Message 57 by Zhimbo, posted 12-05-2003 1:00 PM Yaro has not yet responded

Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6804
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 56 of 213 (71217)
12-05-2003 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Yaro
12-05-2003 12:29 PM


I like bears. I say if they ate kids, they had a darned good reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Yaro, posted 12-05-2003 12:29 PM Yaro has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Amlodhi, posted 12-05-2003 4:21 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 4301 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 57 of 213 (71219)
12-05-2003 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Yaro
12-05-2003 12:29 PM


Willowtree is not the speediest of repliers to anyone. I give her credit for that, actually. I hope she has, you know, a life. ("Willowtree" has to be a female, right?).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Yaro, posted 12-05-2003 12:29 PM Yaro has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Asgara, posted 12-05-2003 2:23 PM Zhimbo has not yet responded
 Message 60 by Brian, posted 12-05-2003 7:29 PM Zhimbo has not yet responded

Asgara
Member (Idle past 592 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 58 of 213 (71232)
12-05-2003 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Zhimbo
12-05-2003 1:00 PM


Hi Zhimbo,

I originally thought that myself, and Willow never said either way. But look at this post, www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=12&t=205&m=8#8 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=12&t=205&m=8#8">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=12&t=205&m=8#8

He also sent me an email and the name listed was most definately a guy.

------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Zhimbo, posted 12-05-2003 1:00 PM Zhimbo has not yet responded

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 213 (71256)
12-05-2003 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Chiroptera
12-05-2003 12:54 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Chiroptera

I like bears. I say if they ate kids, they had a darned good reason.


And you have a perfect right to this opinion.

Afterall, the second Article to the Amendments of the Constitution of the United States of America provides for the right of the people to own and arm bears.

..um..sorry...sorry..the devil made me do it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Chiroptera, posted 12-05-2003 12:54 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 3248 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 60 of 213 (71286)
12-05-2003 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Zhimbo
12-05-2003 1:00 PM


deleted

Brian = drunken bum!

[This message has been edited by Brian, 12-05-2003]

[This message has been edited by Brian, 12-06-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Zhimbo, posted 12-05-2003 1:00 PM Zhimbo has not yet responded

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 61 of 213 (71292)
12-05-2003 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Yaro
12-03-2003 2:11 AM


I do want to reply to your point/question before we go off on the new one.

You are really asking if God is consistent in His judgments, if this is what you are asking whether rhetorical or outright then the answer is found in the context of the circumstances.

You have persistently hammered one constant point - that God ordered and condoned rape. Then you softened your stance and admitted that the verses you posted could IMPLY rape.

I say this is a deduction that you want to make to fit a previous belief that you brought into the discussion. You already know what I have said concerning this debate. May I refer you to what {and I don't believe that I am doing this} fellow member ConsequenAtheist said in their reply. It was a very intelligent response of which I can endorse.

The key to understanding {as opposed to agreement} the God of the O.T. is the overall context: Man is separated from the source of life {God} because of the failure of Adam and Eve in the garden. The Bible doesn't debate the fairness of all humanity bearing the punishment of Adam - it just declares it. Next context: Is God's law, the covenant He gave to Moses, which said covenant reveals God's standard of righteousness.

It is in this context that God makes His judgments upon mankind separated from Him and in constant violation of His law. The reason there is so much blood in the O.T. is because there is so much sin.

The one constant message that God weaves through His word is : Good or bad whatever He says will happen. The risk of defying God is the risk that He will give up on you and judge you according to His law which has the frequent penalty of death. This is the on going problem in the O.T. - humanity trifling with God.

If God keeps His word invariably in the bad things then the same is true in the good things, this is what God wants known that He can be trusted.

If anyone reading this is wondering about the responses I owe in the evolution topic they all will be posted tomorrow 12-6-03.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Yaro, posted 12-03-2003 2:11 AM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Yaro, posted 12-05-2003 9:39 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 4785 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 62 of 213 (71299)
12-05-2003 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Cold Foreign Object
12-05-2003 8:26 PM


You have persistently hammered one constant point - that God ordered and condoned rape. Then you softened your stance and admitted that the verses you posted could IMPLY rape.

If not rape, what about Gibesh-Giliead? They kidnaped women and took them for 'wives'!

If you do not consider the mosess massacre rape, then it is at least forced servitude to your families murderers. Would you not say that this is not equaly abhorant? Someone kills your family, friends, livestock etc. and then forces you to be someones wife! Sorry, but this is some evil stuff.

Rape or not, horrible attrocities are being commited here. I do apreciate consequentAthiests post, though it still does not justify the twisted morality of the situation.

Are you compeatly blind to the fact that its not right to kill people and take their virgins for whatever purpose, in any context?

Did it ever occur to you that ambushing dancing women and forcing them into marrige is not a good and richeous act?

It is in this context that God makes His judgments upon mankind separated from Him and in constant violation of His law. The reason there is so much blood in the O.T. is because there is so much sin.

Gods people shed most of the blood.

Are you saying that they were clensing the world of sin? It seems they were killing a bunch of babys, burning villages, and abducting virgins for mysterious purposes somehow related to their virginity but not including rape.

The one constant message that God weaves through His word is : Good or bad whatever He says will happen. The risk of defying God is the risk that He will give up on you and judge you according to His law which has the frequent penalty of death.

I think this is the heart of the argument.

So God is like a ruthless dictator. He remains hidden, unseen, and distant. Makes up laws you never heard of, then kills you for breaking them.

Pretend you were a person in that village, never heard of isrealites, God, whatever. Happily tended your goats, farmd your land, and warshiped your own dietis.

One day a bunch of people come over your hill and kill you all because they claim the land is theirs. Given to them centuries back lang before anyone can remember. No one told you, your just dead now.

Kinda reminds me of the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy:

The Vogons come to earth to destroy it and make way for their Hyperspace bypass. The people of earth ask why they didn't get a warning, the vogons explain that the plans had been anounced ages ago, and had been on display in the planing office on a planet some light years away. The people of earth had several centuries in which to apeal the decree at the galactic council, but since they didn't they are going to be destroyed. Of cource, the humans werent even aware of other planets, let alone a planing counsil, so they could have never apealed. Their planet was buldozed by a beurocracy they were never aware existed at all.

God seems to do this alot in the OT. It seems hes doing this to people all over the world all the time.

Sorry, but I don't think it's fair.

The only answer I recive from you is whatver God says goes. Might makes right, and I simply don't think this is acceptable.

If us humans cant tell evil when we see it, or bad when we see it, then what did we gain in the garden?

Willowtree, what is the knowledge of good and evil we gained in the garden?

God says he is subject to this, as he explains that this is the quality that makes us like him. Thus he has the same facility for guaging morality as us. How come I read about murder, infantaside, forced marrige (not rape of cource), and think "gee, thats bad, in any context really", yet god gets to be good and all loving while he does these things?

He said we had the same knowledge of good and evil. Yet I know baby killing is bad. So Willowtree, how come god, with the same knowledge as us, gets to say it's good?

[This message has been edited by Yaro, 12-05-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-05-2003 8:26 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Brian, posted 12-08-2003 2:25 PM Yaro has responded

jantoo1
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 213 (71325)
12-06-2003 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Yaro
11-22-2003 2:58 PM


Message of the Bible
The message of the bible is to help us to become what we need to be. It is B- basic, I- instructions, B- before, L-leaving, E- earth.. BIBLE.. It is the only book that for 2000 years has caused so much debate and what other book can say the same?? It is an educational book. it is to help you understand how to live in a world full of mess. Nothing man makes is gonna be perfect. Only God is perfect and if you got anything out of the bible at all it was that we are to do our best to gain the wisdom to know right from wrong.. The old testament god was full of fire and etc. however how much more can you show someone you love them than to give up your own beloved son to die a horrible death to cover the ugly sins of us??? there is NO greater love. Secondly the New testament is about JESUS.. he is all about love.. HE IIS GOD`S LOVE FOR MANKIND..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Yaro, posted 11-22-2003 2:58 PM Yaro has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 12-06-2003 1:12 AM jantoo1 has not yet responded

Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 213 (71328)
12-06-2003 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by jantoo1
12-06-2003 12:56 AM


Re: Message of the Bible
Jantoo1,
Did you even read the replies to the original message before you posted? Have you even read the bible? I have and if you think murder, rape, genocide, cannibalism, and infanticide are examples of love you need some help.

Also, if jesus is willing to endure anything for us why not send him to hell to experience a little of his own medicine.
BTW you are making yourself look like an idiot by posting the “Oh, jesus loves us all.” crap. I suggest that you back up assertions with evidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by jantoo1, posted 12-06-2003 12:56 AM jantoo1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-06-2003 9:48 PM Rand Al'Thor has not yet responded

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 65 of 213 (71410)
12-06-2003 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Rand Al'Thor
12-06-2003 1:12 AM


Re: Message of the Bible
Where did I say Jesus loves us all ? Where did I mention Jesus ?

Your obvious hatred reveals that no matter what I say will have an effect towards understanding the Bible. Your mind is made up so there is nothing to debate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 12-06-2003 1:12 AM Rand Al'Thor has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by AdminAsgara, posted 12-06-2003 10:01 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded
 Message 68 by Yaro, posted 12-06-2003 11:11 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 592 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 66 of 213 (71412)
12-06-2003 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Cold Foreign Object
12-06-2003 9:48 PM


Re: Message of the Bible
Please make sure that you are responding to a post directed towards you. Rand's post was not.

------------------
AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-06-2003 9:48 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-06-2003 10:03 PM AdminAsgara has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019