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Author Topic:   Belief Statements - Lithodid-Man
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 1629 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 3 of 74 (332288)
07-16-2006 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
07-13-2006 10:51 AM


Re: Thank you sir.
Those are tough questions Jar but I will do my best.

I think had the pastor been honest from the beginning none of this would have occurred. I don't believe he had malicious intent, but by lying to me he insulted and wounded me in a way I still feel 25 years later. Part of it is illogical pride on my part. I made an ass out of myself because I believed what he said. To this day I am suspicious of my ability to reason because of how strong I believed his stories.

Had I been in a Christian environment that encouraged questioning I believe I might still consider myself Christian (but I don't know that, of course). My belief at the time was based on absolutes. ALL of the Bible had to be true if ANY of it were true. Liberal Christianity was akin to satanism. There was a war against Christians designed to destroy belief by allowing doubt. And so on.

The part I didn't discuss that I resent is that was pretty much the beginning of the end of my rerlationship with my brother. He stayed with that church and now is so far extreme that those days he considers his liberal days. He has on his bedroom wall a 6x8 foot poster of Timothy McVeigh that says "American patriot". He has become a complete fanatic that needs professional help, and I blame that church for setting him on that path (I recognize that there may be other issues). That church took away the tools he might use to think his way out of it by convincing him back when he was a kid that this war on Christianity takes the form of supposed evidence that there is no war on Christianity.


Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 07-13-2006 10:51 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 07-17-2006 11:19 AM Lithodid-Man has not yet responded

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 1629 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 25 of 74 (338063)
08-05-2006 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
08-03-2006 2:17 AM


Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
Wow, I am amazed that this thread popped back up towards the top after weeks of languishing.

Faith writes:

The fact that there is a modern city in the general vicinity of the ancient location of Tyre doesn't falsify the prophecy of Tyre's total demise. Obviously ancient Tyre is utterly dead. The rock for the spreading of nets that was prophesied exists, and that mere fact makes a fine testimony to the fulfillment of the prophecy

Hmmm. Do you have Google Earth? If not download and install (it is nifty anyhow). In the search field type "Tyre Lebanon". You will zoom to the modern city. To the left of city center is the peninsula that I assume was originally the island part of the city. If you zoom in you can see the beach resorts and hotels covering that part. You can also see a harbor (with boats, some coming in as the photo was taken). From the eastern tip of the breakwater of the harbor look exactly 370 feet just slightly east of due north (1 o'clock). There is a tiny rock used by fishermen to dry their nets. The former island and city in no way is a desolate rock used to dry nets. The desolate rock is a desolate rock and probably has been so since before the prophesy was written. I mean, biblical era Tyre had fishermen, I would assume? So how does it's existence "makes a fine testimony to the fulfillment of the prophesy"?

Anybody reading the account of Ezekial can clearly see that he meant that the great city of Tyre would be stripped bare and never rebuilt and the only use of the place forevermore would be a place to dry nets. No one then or now is going to read it as a prophesy that "Tyre will be attacked and sometimes win and sometimes be defeated but more or less persist and be continuously occupied for thousands of years until it becomes a popular Middle Eastern resort".

More specifically, the Ezekial accounts says that "Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon" would do this and he didn't. The apologetics say that Alexander the Great fulfilled it, but he didn't do it either (he did conquer, but left the people and city relatively intact). So the prophesy never happened.

I found an interesting website, http://www.tyremunicipality.com/history.htm that has an interesting if not annoying interface but traces the history of Tyre from founding until now. The key message is continuous occupation. For thousands and thousands of years everyone living there knew they lived in Tyre, whether they considered themselves Phoenecians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Lebanese, etc.

But all of that aside and to the point of my belief statement. My faith was lost because I was lied to. Not because of some statement of this is prophesy that didn't happen. The pastor of my church told us he went to Tyre and saw it was a bare rock fit only for fishermen to dry their nets upon. And yet to do that he had to have stayed at the Tyre Hilton (or whatever) and walked the breakwater or hired a boat to take a photo of the rock he showed us that he claimed was all that remained. That makes him a liar. And a fraud. Do you see the point?

When someone lies to me and I catch them everything they say after that is immediately suspect. So I started looking at what else he had said, the things that seemed suspicious to me but I put those doubts aside. In a moment of clarity I saw that his beliefs, my Catholic upbringing, all of it, was a con. While I was just a kid at the time, I still see the con 25 years later and know THAT moment was the greatest moment of my life.


Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 08-03-2006 2:17 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 08-05-2006 8:24 PM Lithodid-Man has responded
 Message 34 by MangyTiger, posted 08-06-2006 2:34 PM Lithodid-Man has not yet responded

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 1629 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 37 of 74 (338340)
08-07-2006 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
08-05-2006 8:24 PM


Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
Faith writes:

I doubt your pastor lied. That degree of lie is just preposterous. He's not going to be denying the modern city, how could he? Anyone could easily prove him wrong if that's what he meant, so he just couldn't possibly have meant that.

Hmmm. Outside of the fact that he never mentioned the modern city at all. Outside of the fact that he told us the rock he showed was where Tyre used to be. Now as an adult I can see that it was far too small to build a city on, but it was a big rock. Not once was it mentioned that the rock was a symbol of the desolation of the ancient city that has been replaced or anything you have claimed. And just to show that he wasn't unique in this lie I searched Google for Tyre and "prophesy fulfilled" and found the following:

http://www.equip.org/free/DA151.htm

The most astonishing of Ezekiel’s predictions was that Tyre would never be rebuilt. This is singularly incredible because Tyre is strategically located on the east coast of the Mediterranean Sea. It also contains the Springs of Reselain, which pump ten million gallons of fresh water daily — enough to take care of the needs of a modern city. Yet, history records that after a succession of invasions, Tyre finally and irrevocably fell in A.D. 1291 — never to be rebuilt again. Today Tyre has been humbled to the point of becoming a place for the drying of fishermens’ nets — just as Ezekiel prophesied two-and-one-half millennia ago.

http://www.newtestamentchurch.org/html/Christian_Evidence/Bible_Prophecies.htm

All the prophecies of Ezekiel about Tyre have come true: Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the mainland city of Tyre; many nations were against Tyre; Alexander made her a bare rock and threw debris into the water to make the causeway; fishermen now spread nets over the site (there is a city of Tyre today, but it is located down the coast from the original Tyre); the old city of Tyre has never been rebuilt, even though a great freshwater spring is located at the site, providing 10,000,000 gallons of water daily. It is still an excellent site today but has never been rebuilt, although many have tried. All seven of the predictions came true in the most minute detail.(Emphasis mine)

Do you see this? Tyre would never be rebuilt. Not that the Phoenecian culture would ever rise to prominence, but that the city of Tyre would not be rebuilt. Otherwise why would they emphasize the strategic location and water supply (good place to build a city). Both of the abovementioned websites deny the existence of the modern city of Tyre. There are hundreds of such claims, most I found are just word for repeats of the above (I don't know the original sources, it is funny that so many of these sites just rip off of each other without giving credit).

Faith writes:

If he lied to that extent he'd be a delusional deranged demented disorganized psychotic beyond functioning in this world at all.

You hit the nail on the head. I agree with you 95%. The 5% disagreement is that such people not only function but succeed in this world. Sometimes making millions doing it.


Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 08-05-2006 8:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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