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Author Topic:   Belief Statements - Lithodid-Man
jar
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Posts: 33024
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 2 of 74 (331452)
07-13-2006 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by AdminAsgara
07-11-2006 8:51 PM


Thank you sir.
You raise several interesting points and if you will agree, I'd like to ask you a few questions about them.

Before that though, I would like to simply thank you for having the courage to step out like this.

You mention that your beliefs were strong, even extreme until you found an instance of a blatant lie. I have heard the same from other people who like you, have moved from a position of faith to atheism. Surprisingly the example you gave of Tyre is not unique. I personally know several folk who like you ran into that same lie and like you, it was as if a light had suddenly been shined onto all the other information they had been indoctrinated with.

On to my quesstions.

If, when you went back to the Pastor and confronted him with the fact that the prophecy in question was never fulfilled, he had explained that it was to be taken as a morality story, and not literally, and shown you pictures of Tyre today, would you have had the same reaction?

Was the fact that he simply denied reality such an insult to your intellegence that you could never accept anything he said from then on?

Had your early experience with Christianity been in an environment where you were challenged to question dogma rather than accept dogma, do you think it even remotely possible that you might be a Christian even today?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by AdminAsgara, posted 07-11-2006 8:51 PM AdminAsgara has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33024
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 4 of 74 (332521)
07-17-2006 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Lithodid-Man
07-16-2006 6:38 PM


So what is the possible solution?
From what you have said so far I get the feeling that you would have descibed your Faith as a youngster as "Strong" and sure. Had you been asked, and it looks like you were on several occasions, you would have answered that you "Knew that your pastor was right and that others were wrong."

I am interested from what I must admit is a personal perspective. I see many people here and outside that tell similar stories. We have many theists here at EvC that use the term "Know" when it comes to their religion, whether they are Christians, who else might be a Christian or even about things such as the Flood or the Fall.

Many such people when they finally do actually see the evidence that refutes things that they Know, also turn away from Christianity. Personally, I hate that because I do beklieve there is a GOD and that Christianity does have much to offer in the way of instruction, comfort and help.

In the case of your Pastor, and also your brother, there are a few possibilities. If the Pastor actually did make the trip, did take the picture, then he was certainly aware that the Biblical story of Tyre is simply wrong, not an accurate description of the real world.

We have seen many people here at EvC say that they prefer that children be raised and educated outside the public school and that they feel threatened that the public school system is teaching things that are counter to their beliefs. They equate this to "An atack on Christianity."

Unfortunately, if you do live in this world, it is very likely you will eventually be confronted with evidence that refutes many widely held Christian belifes, ones like Young Earth or that there was a Great Worldwide Flood. This seems to lead to one of several reactions,

  1. the person realizes that the actuality of such beliefs does not have anything to do with GOD or a belief in GOD and moves on.
  2. the person abandons their Faith totally.
  3. they move into a creative stance where they make up a series of possible scenarios that explain whatever troupling fact is presented to them without even considering that many of their mythical scenarios are mutually exclusive.
  4. they say "Yes none of the evidence supports my beliefs but I will continue believing them anyway.

Of those options, the first and fourth seem to happen less often than the second or third.

So, what steps should Christians take to prevent options 2 & 3?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33024
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 7 of 74 (337957)
08-04-2006 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
08-03-2006 2:17 AM


Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
'Cept of course, it never happened. Old Nebbi tried, tried valiantly for 13 years, but never succeeded. Neither did Alexander the Great 300 YEARS after the prophecy was supposedly carried out. And Tyre exists yet today.

Yet another attempt to portray myth as fact falls on its face.

start searching here

Sure the names of nations have changed, and old buildings torn down and rebuilt, but Tyre was there before the Bible was written and has been there ever since.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 08-03-2006 2:17 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 08-04-2006 5:34 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33024
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 9 of 74 (337959)
08-04-2006 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
08-04-2006 5:34 PM


Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
Eze 26:4-14: And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. It shall be [a place for] the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD: and it shall become a spoil to the nations. And her daughters which [are] in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.

For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.

And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be [a place] to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD.

The above just plain didn't happen. Now you can make up all the additions to the story you want, but 300 years later it was still a great City-State.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 08-04-2006 5:34 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 08-04-2006 5:51 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33024
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 12 of 74 (337965)
08-04-2006 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
08-04-2006 5:51 PM


Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
It was still a great City-State when Alexander the Great showed up. And it is there today.

The point is to try to take a morality story, one meant to teach a lesson to the Hebrews of the day as though it were literally true when it is perfectly obvious to anyone that looks that the City of Tyre has been there since at least 3500 BC, likely far longer, is a great way to drive folk away from the truths that are in the Bible and in the Judaic Religions.

There is much to be learned from the stories in the Bible, but as with Lithodid-Man, when Christians try to bend reality to fit their interpretation of the Bible, the message gets lost and all too often, the result is that they turn away from religion.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 08-04-2006 5:51 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 08-04-2006 6:59 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33024
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 15 of 74 (337985)
08-04-2006 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
08-04-2006 6:59 PM


the Tyre prophecy was NOT fulfilled
It certainly is not there today.

Sure it is. It is the fourth largest city in Lebanon. See, it is really laughable assertions like that that drive people away from Christianty.

When Alexander showed up it was so powerful that he feared leaving it as a threat in his rear and bypassing it. He laid siege to it for months with no results. Finally, and only with the help of voluteers from Sidon (another City-State by the way) he built a causeway out to the Island fortress.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 08-04-2006 6:59 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33024
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 21 of 74 (338007)
08-04-2006 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
08-04-2006 8:53 PM


Re: Is that all there is?
Faith, the Prophecy was about bringing down the towers, the walls, the fort. It just didn't happen. For 13 years Nebbi assailed the fortress, and finally, he gave up went away. The "Rock" that was to be laid bare as a place to dry fish nets was the Island City of Tyre. And guess what? It was still there 300 years later when Alexander showed up.

The Prophecy just plain never came true.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 08-04-2006 8:53 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 08-04-2006 9:34 PM jar has responded
 Message 39 by randman, posted 08-07-2006 6:38 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33024
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 23 of 74 (338015)
08-04-2006 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
08-04-2006 9:34 PM


Re: Is that all there is?
What ever makes you happy Faith. Make up whatever stories you need to make your worship of the Bible feel good.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 08-04-2006 9:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33024
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 35 of 74 (338274)
08-06-2006 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by MangyTiger
08-06-2006 2:34 PM


Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
You can see it using just Google maps. Enter Tyre, Lebanon and then select the satellite view.

The old city of Tyre, the one that Faith claims is no more, was originally a fortified Island that today is the end of a penninsula. Alexander built the first causeway that connected the island to the mainland and since that time it has been expanded through natural and man made practices.

Exactly which rock various Fundamentalists claim fulfills the prophecy depends on which of the small little rocks they find empty at the time. If you look you can see numerous little rocks along the shoreline but none large enough to be the old fortified Tyre with walls 150 feet high.

you can see the image here

Edited by jar, : spallin


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by MangyTiger, posted 08-06-2006 2:34 PM MangyTiger has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 33024
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 40 of 74 (338358)
08-07-2006 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by randman
08-07-2006 6:38 AM


Re: Is that all there is?
Pretty much the same way we know that the conquest of Canaan never happened as described in the Bible or that the flood or the Exodus never happened. The archeological evidence is still there, Alexander never claimed to have leveled it, none of the other nations or city states ever noticed it.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33024
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 42 of 74 (338416)
08-07-2006 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by randman
08-07-2006 6:52 PM


Re: no evidence?
Randman, that's about as silly a post as I have seen here yet and I have no intention of wasting any more time with it.

Thank you for posting.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by randman, posted 08-07-2006 6:52 PM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by randman, posted 08-07-2006 7:06 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33024
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 44 of 74 (338422)
08-07-2006 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by randman
08-07-2006 7:06 PM


Re: no evidence?
Randman, it was still there and still a fortress in 1100 AD when the Crusaders placed it under siege. Now I expect you to pull the old "That's not the same Tyre" story that Faith tried and if so, I will simply laugh at the message just as at message that the Biblical prophecy about Tyre came true.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by randman, posted 08-07-2006 7:06 PM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by randman, posted 08-07-2006 7:22 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33024
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 46 of 74 (338424)
08-07-2006 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by randman
08-07-2006 7:22 PM


Re: no evidence?
Read what I write. The Crusaders laid siege to the fortress. The fortress of Tyre was still very much there AND very much a formidable fortress in 1100AD.

That ends my responses to you in this thread.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 33024
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 54 of 74 (338492)
08-08-2006 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by nator
08-08-2006 9:01 AM


Re: one more time?
What would be the point of completely destroying valuable military property, as the fortress city of Tyre was, if he was empire-building? It makes much more sense to subdue the populace but keep as much of the fortress intact as possible so he could then use it.

Alexander was not stupid. He knew that his real threat remained to the north, Darius and the Persian Army and fleet. If Alexander was to succeed he needed a secure supply line behind him. One of the best and most defendable ports happened to be...?

You guessed it, Tyre.

The folk that want to believe the prophecy came true willingly ignore all of the logic or evidence and also joyfully interpret the story to try to make it work yet still it don't fly.

If you read Tyre story in the Bible it's pretty clear that all this is to happen in Nebbis time. Well it didn't happen.

Then they grab the "waves" lifeboat and say Alexander did it. But when it is shown that the Fortress is still there 18 years later and still there when the Crusaders have to lay seige to it over 700 years later, we see phrases like "... scraping down the rock in places,..." when that just ain't the way it happened or they jump on the "Phoenician" train even though Tyre of Alexander was a Persian colony and not the Phoenican City-State anyway.

If folk wish to believe such a fairy tale, that is fine. What they need to understand though is that when the average person looks at the prophecy and then at the history of Tyre and the current physical city of Tyre, they will realize that the person who is trying to sell the prophecy fantasy is just flat wrong. If the the person continues then to insist that it is true, the listener has to question just how many other such false tales have been taught?

It is stuff like this, trying to sell myth and story as reality, that drives so many folk away from a belief in GOD. That is the only real problem. Christians need to understand that when they try to pitch something like Tyre or the Flood or the Exodus or the Conquest of Canaan or Young Earth to someone who is actually willing to look at the evidence, the result will be just another ex-Christian.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 52 by nator, posted 08-08-2006 9:01 AM nator has not yet responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 33024
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 57 of 74 (338515)
08-08-2006 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by MangyTiger
08-07-2006 10:32 PM


Re: Hmmm...
One of the interesting things about the history of Alexander and Tyre is found in Flavius account. Most of the magistrates of the city took refuge in Heracles Temple. Alexander spared them and left them to continue the administration of the city.

There was never really any Kingdom of Tyre, it was just one of the City-States of the time. At various times it was Assyrian, Egyptian, Macedonian, Persian, Independant and today part of Lebanon. But the people are still the same, the site is still the same, it has been continuously occupied and is still there today.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by MangyTiger, posted 08-07-2006 10:32 PM MangyTiger has not yet responded

  
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