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Author Topic:   Belief Statements - Lithodid-Man
randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 38 of 74 (338342)
08-07-2006 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by AdminAsgara
07-11-2006 8:51 PM


Tyre
Actually, I think the old fortress and city of Tyre was on that rock and did get destroyed. Of course, there is a city of Tyre, but my recollection from history is that the rocky area was where the king and everyone took refufe (city walls) and for a long time no one could penetrate the fortress but that someone came up with bright idea of building a land bridge out to it, and eventually conquered it so thoroughly, that it never came back.

Heck, there are some swamps in SC where thriving towns once stood before Sherman destroyed them. Just because the rocky area was beaten down doesn't mean there wasn't a town and fortress there.

Edited by randman, : No reason given.


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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 6367
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Message 39 of 74 (338343)
08-07-2006 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
08-04-2006 9:07 PM


Re: Is that all there is?
Where's your evidence Alexander the Great didn't level it?

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 41 of 74 (338414)
08-07-2006 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
08-07-2006 10:39 AM


no evidence?
So you have no evidence for your opinion? Nothing?

Please substantiate your claim or retract it (as you guys are wont to say).


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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 43 of 74 (338418)
08-07-2006 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
08-07-2006 6:55 PM


Re: no evidence?
Please substantiate your claims jar according to the rules. You suggested Alexander the Great did not really destroy Tyre. You offer no qualifications or elaboration, and I am calling your bluff.

Back it up or retract it.

The accounts I have read are that the mainland of Tyre was first laid waste as it was used to help build the land-bridge, so much as that in some places it was scraped down to the rock as the Macedonians searched for material to load into the sea to fill it.

Then, when the fortress of Tyre fell, Alexander's army trampled it, killing thousands and selling thousands into slavery, and that the Pheonecian empire never recovered.

But you made your claim first. Please back it up, per the rules, or retract it.

Just for clarity, I am referring not simply to the first post I replied to but your argument you have made repeatedly on this thread, such as:

'Cept of course, it never happened. Old Nebbi tried, tried valiantly for 13 years, but never succeeded. Neither did Alexander the Great 300 YEARS after the prophecy was supposedly carried out. And Tyre exists yet today

I am just asking for you to show us where Alexander the Great did not conquer and destroy Tyre and the Phoenician empire. I think Faith already addressed the point that the waves of attacks from different nations suggests that Nebi wasn't expected to totally destroy Tyre and the Phoenician empire.

Edited by randman, : No reason given.


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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 45 of 74 (338423)
08-07-2006 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
08-07-2006 7:18 PM


Re: no evidence?
No links? Just opinion?

Please. You made specific statements that Alexander the Great tried like Nebi to destroy Tyre and failed.

'Cept of course, it never happened. Old Nebbi tried, tried valiantly for 13 years, but never succeeded. Neither did Alexander the Great 300 YEARS after the prophecy was supposedly carried out.

Alexander the Great did topple Tyre, defeated it, wiped parts of clean down the rock. The ruins we see today are not considered, from what I have read, to be ruins from that time, but were later built (by the Crusaders). I don't think the Crusaders building on the same site as the Phoenicians qualifies as a revival of the Phoenician empire, but whatever floats your boat jar.

Suffice to say is that you publicly refuse to back up and substantiate a specific claim you made.

Why?


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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 47 of 74 (338425)
08-07-2006 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
08-07-2006 7:25 PM


Hmmm...
You know, I think it's reasonable to ask for you to back this up. You stated:

'Cept of course, it never happened. Old Nebbi tried, tried valiantly for 13 years, but never succeeded. Neither did Alexander the Great 300 YEARS after the prophecy was supposedly carried out.

What did Alexander the Great try to do and fail to do? Maybe you just exagerrated a little, jar?

Most accounts I have read, just so you know, are that Alexander laid Tyre to waste and destroyed the Phoenician empire once and for all, pretty much just as the Bible predicted.


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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 48 of 74 (338429)
08-07-2006 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
08-07-2006 7:25 PM


one more time?
Jar, I will throw you a bone here in the hopes you assess the destruction Alexander the Great caused and offer some evidence for your position that he failed in his endeavor.

Now, this bone is sort of tricky. Clearly, I think the prophecy was fulfilled. Tyre was conquered, but it took Alexander the Great and not just Nebi to cause the full, massive destruction, scraping down the rock in places, etc,....

However, sometimes I wonder if prophecy isn't always as precise, even though the word of God, as we make it. Agabus was a prophet, for example, in Acts, and he prophesied that Paul faced trouble and would be bound if he went to Jerusalem, and he was, and Agabus's prophecy was very much true in that regard, but at the same time, there were some details that are slightly off. For example, Agabus says:

11And when he had come unto us, he took Paul's girdle and bound his own hands and feet, and said, "Thus saith the Holy Ghost, `So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'"

But in reality, the Jews at Jerusalem would have killed Paul had the Gentiles, the Romans, not saved them.

Was Agabus a false prophet?

No. He sensed in his spirit that the Jews would attack Paul; he would be bound and delivered to the Gentiles, and so prophesied out of that impartation from the Spirit of God, but since it still had to come out through him, the interpretation of the prophetic impartation technically got a couple of facts backwards, but still was true to the original prophecy.

Now, it may be that Nebi did not complete the destruction of Tyre and the Phoenecian empire, but he did launch such an attack, and the prophet saw or sensed that. He spoke pointedly about waves of attacks (technically perhaps contradicting himself, but just stating the prophetic impression as truthfully as he knew it), and sure enough, Alexander really came along and completed the prophecy.

One of the biggest problems with Bible naysayers is the lack of knowledge of the spiritual processes involved, and so find often a "contradiction" where none in reality exists because prophecies, even from God, can have an imprecision within them being based on the prophet's subjective prophetic experience. Nevertheless, they do also contain a remarkable precision that is harmonious with the heart and intent of the prophecy.

God says Tyre (the Phoenecian city) would be totally destroyed and never return, and that is fulfilled. It is your interpretation that He meant that no city could ever occupy the same spot, and it may be that the prophecy could even suggest that in tone since the prophet doesn't always understand the full meaning of the prophecy, but clearly the details did happen as the prophecy described. Tyre was laid waste.

Personally, if I was skeptic, I would just say, well so what, you can prophesy any city will eventually be laid waste and conquered and eventually come true, but then again, the purpose of the prophecy is not to convince the skeptic.

Edited by randman, : No reason given.


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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 53 of 74 (338484)
08-08-2006 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by nator
08-08-2006 9:01 AM


Re: one more time?
It makes a lot of sense if you want to protect your rearguard, and you also are ticked off they they held you up for 6 months and publicly ridiculed you, killing your soldiers they captured publicly from their walls. That's one reason for such a large slaughter when Tyre fell.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 6367
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Message 55 of 74 (338511)
08-08-2006 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
08-08-2006 11:29 AM


Re: one more time?
I'd appreciate it if you aren't going to back up your conclusions on the thread, that you wouldn't start making new ones, jar.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 56 of 74 (338512)
08-08-2006 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by MangyTiger
08-07-2006 10:32 PM


Re: Hmmm...
Mangy, did Alexander remove the former rulers and most of the former occupants or not?

Same with Nebi, it seems. Apparently, according to some here (conflicting accounts and since some like jar won't back up his account, who knows?), Nebi or someone made Tyre a Persian colony.

Making a kingdom a colony certainly suffices to destroying the former kingdom.


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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 60 of 74 (338554)
08-08-2006 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by ringo
08-08-2006 2:28 PM


Re: Hmmm...
That depends on how you define a kingdom. It it was a kingdom and now is not, then the kingdom itself is destroyed regardless of whether the area was rendered permanently inhabitable or whatever.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 65 of 74 (338660)
08-09-2006 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by MangyTiger
08-08-2006 10:13 PM


Re: Hmmm...
I asked for some substantiation and got next to nothing. My understanding stands. Alexander laid siege for months, eventually broke through, slaughtered thousands of the men of the city and sold thousands into slavery; apparently destroyed mainland Tyre and threw it into the sea, etc,...

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