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Author Topic:   Belief Statements - Lithodid-Man
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 6 of 74 (337582)
08-03-2006 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by AdminAsgara
07-11-2006 8:51 PM


No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
The fact that there is a modern city in the general vicinity of the ancient location of Tyre doesn't falsify the prophecy of Tyre's total demise. Obviously ancient Tyre is utterly dead. The rock for the spreading of nets that was prophesied exists, and that mere fact makes a fine testimony to the fulfillment of the prophecy.

Clearly the prophecy was about the end of a great city-state, and Tyre was one of the greatest in its day. That civilization is dead. Not a shred of it remains. Many other civilizations have come and gone since then in the general vicinity and all that remains of them is ruins too.

The prophecy came true and that specific prophecy of a bare rock spread with fishing nets, symbolizing the utter death of Tyre and its wealth and influence, is nicely fulfilled and makes a neat emblem of the truth of God's word.

quote:
Eze 26:4-14: And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. It shall be [a place for] the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD: and it shall become a spoil to the nations. And her daughters which [are] in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.

For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.

And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be [a place] to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD.


All the above was fulfilled. Ancient Tyre is gone. Nebuchadnezzar was the first to overrun her, but others followed. All of it has been fulfilled. Right down to the bare rock in the midst of the sea that is a place for the spreading of nets.

From a tourist site:

Tyre, Sidon & Eshmoun
...Tyre, named after the founder of Carthage, and formerly the greatest of the Phoenician city-states. Located 83km / 52 miles south of Beirut, Tyre is a designated World Heritage Site. Our tour starts with a visit to the excavated ruins that consist of three parts: the south side of the old Phoenician island-city that includes a large site of colonnades, public baths, mosaic streets and a rectangular arena, the northern site ruins observed from the road, and the third area on the landward side east that consists of the most impressive archaeological remains, such as the Roman necropolis and hippodrome.
http://www.worldheritagetours.com/tours/lebanon_prebiblical.html

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 8 of 74 (337958)
08-04-2006 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
08-04-2006 5:19 PM


Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
Sure the names of nations have changed, and old buildings torn down and rebuilt, but Tyre was there before the Bible was written and has been there ever since.

Not as the great city-state God said would be flattened. It was and it never rose again.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 08-04-2006 5:19 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 08-04-2006 5:43 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 10 of 74 (337961)
08-04-2006 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
08-04-2006 5:43 PM


Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
Where's your proof?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 08-04-2006 5:43 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 08-04-2006 6:06 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 13 of 74 (337982)
08-04-2006 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
08-04-2006 6:06 PM


Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
It was still a great City-State when Alexander the Great showed up. And it is there today.

It certainly is not there today. Its former glory has been buried under layers of subsequent civilizations, also mere ruins.

And again, what is your proof evidence that it was "still a great City-State" when Alexander the Great showed up?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by arachnophilia, posted 08-04-2006 7:05 PM Faith has responded
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 16 of 74 (337986)
08-04-2006 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by arachnophilia
08-04-2006 7:05 PM


Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
see that thing that looks like a thriving metropolitan area on the beach? that's a thriving metropolitan area on the beach.

That is not the ancient thriving gloriously magnificent city-state of Tyre, which is buried under layers of later ruins.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by arachnophilia, posted 08-04-2006 7:16 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 18 of 74 (337996)
08-04-2006 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by arachnophilia
08-04-2006 7:16 PM


Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
Not at all in the same manner. The whole cultural existence of Tyre, all its wealth and power, are buried under layers of Greek and Roman ruins.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 20 of 74 (338003)
08-04-2006 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by NosyNed
08-04-2006 8:50 PM


Re: Is that all there is?
Rome is still Rome, but Tyre is not still Tyre the ancient wealthy Phoenician city-state. You ignored the point about its cultural existence. It was Greek and then Roman and now Lebanese.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 74 (338013)
08-04-2006 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
08-04-2006 9:07 PM


Re: Is that all there is?
Read the passage again. It talks about many nations coming against Tyre in waves. That is what happened. Their ruins are all evident. Tyre the great Phoenician city-state is buried at the bottom of them all. The island part of the city is a place for spreading nets, just as the prophecy said.

I'm content with these basic facts as sufficient to demonstrate the fulfillment of the prophecy but here's an apologetics site that goes into more detail than I've seen on this subject before.

quote:
Background: Tyre was a major city-state of the Phoenicians, a people famous for their sea trade and technical skills. As a commercial center, we should think of Tyre as the Manhattan, Hong Kong, or Singapore of the ancient near east.15 The ports and main temples of Tyre were situated on an island 1/2 mile off the coast, making them impervious to attack. Like Manhattan and Hong Kong, Tyre was highly dependent on the mainland for its resources (water, food, wood) and land-trade routes.

1) The first challenge to Ezekiel's prophecy involves his statement that Nebuchadnezzar would attack Tyre. While this argument had force at the turn of the century, Jacob Katzenstein notes: "The many doubts about the authenticity of Ezekiel's words concerning a siege of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar were shattered after Unger published a tablet which is an official receipt for provisions 'for the king and the soldiers who went with him against the land of Tyre.'"16 The wording of the tablet strongly implies that the king himself headed the campaign and at least part of the following 13-year siege.

2) Once an external source confirmed the historicity of this siege of Tyre, skeptics focused on the next oddity: Nebuchadnezzar is described as attacking Tyre using land siege equipment! Walther Eichrodt ridicules this, noting the host of ancient references that describe Tyre as "an island in the midst of the sea," and he proposes that these verses are a "war song" added by later disciples to spice up the passage.17

Archaeologists and historians are not so quick to dispose of these verses: Bikai stresses that, due to severe space constraints on the island, the majority of the population and most of Tyre's factories and warehouses were located on the mainland.18 Katzenstein discusses the letters of Qurdi-assur-lamur to Sargon which show the extensive interaction between the independent island port of Tyre and the Assyrian-controlled mainland.19

Perhaps the best collaboration with Ezekiel's description of the Babylonian attack and siege of Tyre comes from a campaign report of the Assyrian king Esarhaddon, who mentions building earthworks against Baal king of Tyre and withholding from them food and water. Moreover, it appears that the descriptive phrase "in the midst of the sea" does not require that Tyre be exclusively an island city: Esarhaddon Prisms A and B refer to Tyre's neighbor, the Phoenician coastal city-state Sidon as a "fortress town, which lied in the midst of the sea."21 Also, Prism B includes Tyre in a list of cities located "on the coast of the sea." There seems to be some flexibility in ancient descriptions of coastal cities, so we should not try to press one description too far.

3) Critics then move on to their most serious charge: Nebuchadnezzar did not destroy the island city of Tyre. Clearly the prediction failed, and this failure is even admitted by Ezekiel himself (29:17-21) when he predicts that God will give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar's troops as payment for their hard work in besieging Tyre.

Before responding to this, we must note two features in the prediction. The first is the opening statement that God will bring "many nations" against Tyre, "like the waves of the sea" (verse 3). This is a clear indication that we should not expect one nation or one attack to produce the severe destruction and final state of desolation that Ezekiel predicts. Second, we note that the attacker changes from singular (he) to plural (they) between verses 11 and 12. Up through verse 11, Ezekiel describes Nebuchadnezzar entering the gates of the city, trampling its streets, and slaying people. Verses 12 and following describe later waves of attackers (they) who take booty, destroy the city, and throw its debris into the water.

A closer look at Ez. 29:17-21 reveals that God's (and Ezekiel's) stated concern is not that Tyre was not taken, but that the troops did not receive adequate pay for their efforts. The historical record is clear that Nebuchadnezzar finally subjugated Tyre even though he did not raze the island. Babylonian records refer to a new king ruling Tyre after the siege, to the royal family of Tyre living in Babylon (in exile), and to a Babylonian official who governs Tyre.22

In summary we can reconstruct the following: Nebuchadnezzar, like Esarhaddon a century before him, waged a conventional land-based attack against the mainland portion of greater Tyre. He successfully captured the mainland, but not before most of the occupants had a chance to flee to the island fortress, taking the best of their goods with them. After a 13-year siege, the island was starved into submission, and became a vassal of Babylon. There was a change' of leadership and undoubtedly some tribute paid, but the island was not pillaged. Given the minimal return for their effort, God rewarded Nebuchadnezzar's troops by granting them success against Egypt. Ezekiel 29:17-21 is not "making lemonade out of a lemon" or trying to cover for a failed prophecy; it is simply rewarding the first of the many waves of nations that will follow.

4) Alexander's attack against the island city of Tyre in 332 B.C. is famous in military history. While invading Persia and Egypt, Alexander did not want to leave his flank exposed to a possible counterattack from Tyre, a vassal of Persia and the strongest naval power on the Mediterranean. Rather than waste time besieging the island for years, he decided to build a land bridge out to the island and take it by direct attack. This dramatic venture is well documented in Arrian's Anabasis Alexandri.

Many commentators feel that Ezekiel's prophecy was fulfilled in Alexander's attack, and some liberal scholars argue for a late date for Ezekiel by claiming that later disciples inserted the material that describes Alexander's siege so well.23 Clearly, Alexander fulfilled the comments that the rubble of Tyre would be thrown into the sea, since the mainland ruins were used to build the land bridge out to the island.24 However Ezekiel predicts that Tyre would not be rebuilt, and that it would become a place for the spreading of fishnets. From Arrian's descriptions it is very clear that Alexander did not level the island fortress, in fact, he had Tyre rebuilt. Tyre remained an important trading and manufacturing center that was fought over by Alexander's immediate successors, the Ptolemies and the Seleucids.25

Recent excavations at Tyre show how large the city was in Roman times. A hippodrome with a seating capacity for 60,000 people and a large necropolis were discovered on the mainland in the 1970's. Clearly in New Testament times, the prophecy of Ezekiel was not fulfilled: Tyre was a thriving commercial center when the First Testament was distributed throughout the Roman Empire by Jewish and Christian communities alike. Thus it seems strange for critics to propose that a late redactor inserted the material about Alexander "after the fact," but was so foolish to put in (or leave in) these obvious errors.

5) Tyre served as a major trading and manufacturing center throughout the Byzantine and Muslim periods. During the Crusades, Tyre remained strong and well-fortified, surviving a siege by Saladin in 1187-88 A.D. Finally, in 1291 A.D., the last wave of the nations crashed against Tyre. The Mamluks from Egypt took Tyre, massacred the citizens or sold them into slavery, and destroyed the city as part of their "scorched-earth" policy to thwart any attempt by the Crusaders to return.26 The region then suffered under inter-sect Muslim rivalry, a major earthquake and plague. Several travelogues written during this period remark that the site was essentially abandoned.

In the 1760's a small settlement at Tyre was encouraged by regional authorities, which grew into a small fishing village. Tyre finally became a place for the spreading of fishnets.

6) Over the past 30 years the city of Tyre has grown in size, thanks to a new water supply and Lebanese efforts to develop the excellent beaches near the site as a resort and tourist attraction.27 However, the civil war and proximity to Israel make the region unstable today. Looting at the site is a major concern of archaeologists and historians. Despite this modest growth there seems to be no danger that Tyre will once again become the world-class commercial center and naval power that earned her the title of "Queen of the Seas".



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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 26 of 74 (338155)
08-05-2006 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Lithodid-Man
08-05-2006 4:14 AM


Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
Anybody reading the account of Ezekial can clearly see that he meant that the great city of Tyre would be stripped bare and never rebuilt and the only use of the place forevermore would be a place to dry nets. No one then or now is going to read it as a prophesy that "Tyre will be attacked and sometimes win and sometimes be defeated but more or less persist and be continuously occupied for thousands of years until it becomes a popular Middle Eastern resort".

More specifically, the Ezekial accounts says that "Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon" would do this and he didn't. The apologetics say that Alexander the Great fulfilled it, but he didn't do it either (he did conquer, but left the people and city relatively intact). So the prophesy never happened

Here's an earlier part of the prophecy:

Eze 26:3-5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up. And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. It shall be [a place for] the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.

It then goes on to detail Nebuchadnezzar's attack, but go back and pause at the line, "Will cause many nations to come up against you as the sea causes his waves to come up."

This is not talking about one nation but a series of nations. This is in keeping with what Daniel not long afterward prophesied about the series of empires that would rise and fall in that area, who conquered much territory one after the other. This started with Babylon, followed by Medo-Persia, then Greece under Alexander, then the Roman Empire. I don't know about Medo-Persia but the others have certainly left their mark on what once was Tyre, a great civilization unto itself that is no longer. What do you see there even of ruins? Greek and Roman ruins. It certainly did become "a spoil of the nations." The ancient city of Tyre is buried deep.

Also, in the language of prophecy it is possible that the following verses about Nebuchadnezzar incorporate the series of empires that followed him as well.

But all of that aside and to the point of my belief statement. My faith was lost because I was lied to. Not because of some statement of this is prophesy that didn't happen. The pastor of my church told us he went to Tyre and saw it was a bare rock fit only for fishermen to dry their nets upon. And yet to do that he had to have stayed at the Tyre Hilton (or whatever) and walked the breakwater or hired a boat to take a photo of the rock he showed us that he claimed was all that remained. That makes him a liar. And a fraud. Do you see the point?

I doubt your pastor lied. That degree of lie is just preposterous. He's not going to be denying the modern city, how could he? Anyone could easily prove him wrong if that's what he meant, so he just couldn't possibly have meant that. If he lied to that extent he'd be a delusional deranged demented disorganized psychotic beyond functioning in this world at all.

I'm just amazed that people are so willing to call others liars at such a level. Impossible. He merely saw the bare rock which is there still, and did not regard the city that is now there to have anything to do with ancient Tyre.

Which it doesn't. Tyre as I understand the prophecy no longer existed when the wealthy Phoenician culture with its own gods was no longer sovereign. How long that took I don't know. Waves of nations coming against it implies it happened in stages. But the bare rock is an emblem of its complete demise.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Lithodid-Man, posted 08-05-2006 4:14 AM Lithodid-Man has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by ringo, posted 08-06-2006 10:30 AM Faith has responded
 Message 37 by Lithodid-Man, posted 08-07-2006 5:20 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 51 by nator, posted 08-08-2006 8:52 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 28 of 74 (338220)
08-06-2006 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by ringo
08-06-2006 10:30 AM


Tyre no longer exists. The point has been made. If you think some modern Arab city is Tyre you don't get it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by ringo, posted 08-06-2006 10:30 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 08-06-2006 11:09 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 74 (338234)
08-06-2006 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
08-06-2006 11:09 AM


Whatever number of waves was needed to completely wipe ancient Phoenician Tyre off the planet has come and gone and done the deed.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 33 of 74 (338254)
08-06-2006 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by MangyTiger
08-06-2006 2:09 PM


The point of prophecy is to demonstrate that God is behind it all, and to teach the causes of such destruction.

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