Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 67 (9049 total)
35 online now:
AZPaul3, CosmicChimp, kjsimons, nwr, ringo (5 members, 30 visitors)
Newest Member: Wes johnson
Upcoming Birthdays: Astrophile
Post Volume: Total: 887,597 Year: 5,243/14,102 Month: 164/677 Week: 23/26 Day: 5/6 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Introduction to the Federalists Party - Kuresu
kuresu
Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 3 of 35 (347158)
09-06-2006 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by nwr
09-06-2006 11:12 PM


Re: Ah, the boundless idealism of youth
yeah, it does kind off rely on people not getting corrupted once in power. but who knows . . .


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by nwr, posted 09-06-2006 11:12 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 09-06-2006 11:56 PM kuresu has responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 5 of 35 (347172)
09-07-2006 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
09-06-2006 11:56 PM


Re: Ah, the boundless idealism of youth
aha--you mean the already existing nationalist party?

yeah . . .
NOT related to it.
at first glance they look like harcore conservatives.
the party my friend and I started (and it's still on the ground) is moderate.
looks like we need a name change.

upon further looking into--they are more hardcore conservative than perhaps even Ahmednijad. jesus.

we'll get back to you on the name.


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 09-06-2006 11:56 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 09-07-2006 12:06 AM kuresu has responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 7 of 35 (347176)
09-07-2006 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
09-07-2006 12:06 AM


Re: Ah, the boundless idealism of youth
I just popped off an e-mail to my friend, but tenatively, the names are

Unionists
Federalists
Constitutionalists

unless he comes up with some other names--my favorite's the middle one.

note to any admins--can one of you all change the title to
"Introduction to ???? Party"

note to all other's who actually read the column I wrote--omit the word nationalist. principles still stand, but name's gotta go.

stupid fascist bastards perverting the word nationalist:mad:


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 09-07-2006 12:06 AM jar has not yet responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 9 of 35 (347187)
09-07-2006 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by ReverendDG
09-07-2006 1:05 AM


Re: Ah, the boundless idealism of youth
blame it on my defintion of nationalism--I prefer the more traditional one--well before the italian fascists used it.

what I really want to know is what you all think of this.
and since I'm now writing a regular column--I gotta draw material from somewhere.

how about a discussion of the ideas presented? (kind off the whole point, really:))


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ReverendDG, posted 09-07-2006 1:05 AM ReverendDG has not yet responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 10 of 35 (347307)
09-07-2006 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by AdminAsgara
09-06-2006 10:48 PM


thank you for changing the title.


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by AdminAsgara, posted 09-06-2006 10:48 PM AdminAsgara has not yet responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 12 of 35 (347328)
09-07-2006 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by New Cat's Eye
09-07-2006 3:35 PM


Re: to the point
This does require a change in the political landscape. It relies on people being sick and tired of the crappy campaigns. It relies on people being willing to sit down and actually think. not just go for the best-looking guy, but the guy who has the best ideas. It also requires people (especially the gov't) to realize that compromise is necessary--I don't think anyone is happy with the rate at which our government works.

we're already losing power--our relative power. As China and India become more powerful, and if the EU ever decides to really do something, even if we haven't lost our actual power, we've a lot less relative power. My personal prediction--we're going ot end up in the concert of europe all over again, with the balance of power--just globally, instead of in europe.

As to improvement of america--that's our domestic area. mainly its education.

And if they keep on throwing mud, and we don't throw back, who would you vote for?

thanks for actually putting up some criticisms. can't wait for the full thing.

abe:if we don't improve the nation (esp education) just to not piss of others, how do we prevent loss of power? many nations would like nothing more than for the US to fall to the wayside--almost total loss of power. People pick on the most powerful, they complain about the most powerful. While we're still in the business of pissing of those who don't like us to begin with, we may as well improve a bunch of the stuff we do wrong here.

Edited by kuresu, : No reason given.


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-07-2006 3:35 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-07-2006 5:48 PM kuresu has responded
 Message 14 by jar, posted 09-07-2006 5:54 PM kuresu has not yet responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 15 of 35 (347335)
09-07-2006 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by New Cat's Eye
09-07-2006 5:48 PM


Re: to the point
It looks like I found my next column--a further disertation on "being partners with the world".

Put briefly--we need partners to help us accomplish our foreign policy goals. Naturally, you don't ally with those whose only goal is to destroy you.

as to the mud-slinging:
defense is good--but you do not insult or attack your opponent, you destroy his ideas. That's one thing that really pissed me off about hte last pres. election--one accused the integrity of the other's military record, and the other turns around and does the same thing. Instead of solely defending the integrity of thier own record.

thanks for the encouragement


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-07-2006 5:48 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 18 of 35 (347482)
09-08-2006 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by anglagard
09-08-2006 2:20 AM


The hardship of the third party.
I'm about to find out myself. I know that no third party has ever existed for a long while, or ever gained any real influence--republicans excepted.

it's a grass roots kinda thing. It's got to be on a national level, and what really stinks is that it has been rigged so that it is difficult for third parties to exist.

but, if I don't give it a shot, I can't say I've really tried to do something.


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by anglagard, posted 09-08-2006 2:20 AM anglagard has not yet responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 20 of 35 (347538)
09-08-2006 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by JavaMan
09-08-2006 8:11 AM


Re: Is your new party distinctive enough?
you ever expect the repubs and dems to compromise on anything?

you ever expect either to at least attempt passing an in budget budget?

you ever expect either parties to actually clean up their mess?

we're a moderate party. they generally don't have that "distinctive" edge, so we're left with either two (when it comes to voting). that's gotta stop. right now, the parties are locked down in ideological fist fights, refusing to budge. that's not good for this country. as such, the distinctive edge, I think, is the compromise part. I don't know of a single party that actually espouses that as part of the platform.


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by JavaMan, posted 09-08-2006 8:11 AM JavaMan has not yet responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 22 of 35 (347589)
09-08-2006 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by NeuroCycle
09-08-2006 12:29 PM


Re: Good stance, but...
thanks.

one question-how many more people are out there, like you?
you know, the moderate, who does agree with this platform (for the most part)?

we can always give it a try--and if we don't at least make an attempt, well . . .


All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by NeuroCycle, posted 09-08-2006 12:29 PM NeuroCycle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by NeuroCycle, posted 09-09-2006 2:56 AM kuresu has not yet responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 25 of 35 (355775)
10-10-2006 10:54 PM


Introduction to the Christian Democratic Party--Foreign Policy
Something tells me it’s time for the second installment of my supposedly monthly column feature. It’s also the second of a series dealing specifically with the, as I think our name is now (my friend and I have had quite some trouble with this, but it looks like we’ve settled on the Christian Democratic party. This time, it’s our take on international relations and the US.

Fortunately, when writing out the first column, I had done a much more comprehensive outlining of the party, and then used the version at EvC (as the sign now reads niotulove susrev noitaerc) to introduce the party and it’s basic ideas. For convenience, here is the blurb that shows up in the version dealing with international relations:

[blurb]We must recognize that we can no longer remain isolationist, xenophobic, or unilateral. We are the most powerful nation on this planet . . . for now. This does not mean, though, that we can ignore what the world thinks of us, nor can we ignore the consequences of our actions on the world. Gone is the cold war and with it, our unilateral power. We have to become a partner in world affairs, not a nation that thinks it has no bounds our limits to its power. Point put simple, we are not invincible, and yes, we will need the world’s help on the international stage. [blurb]

The reason I have chosen to go further in detail with this is that this was the major thorn in Catholic Scientist’s side—preventing the loss of US power. It seemed to him (as I understand it) that our position threatened US power. I will now attempt to show, much more fully and completely, how our position on international relations is a response to what my friend and I feel is the beginning of the end of American power, and what we can do to try and reverse this trend. What follows is the full (for now—it needs work, and there is another section that I grouped with this, though upon further reflection, it belongs in a slightly different category, and is not germane to this area) explanation of the statement above.

[blurb]For now, that wraps up domestic goals. Onward ho to the foreign goals. Or perhaps more precisely, the international arena goals. For the last half century, after World War II, the US has most definitely been the preeminent power in the world. This power was also around prior to our entry into WWII, but latent. Or, hidden.

Proof of this would be the Great Depression. When our economy crashed into the ground, we took out economies all over the world. So while we didn’t have the military power, we had the economic power. Both were very important during the Cold War against the USSR, now Russia. Today, we still have, if not the most powerful, one of the most powerful militaries in the world. And our economy is still powerful, if growing at an anemic rate.

The problem today is, we are no longer the sole holder of power. Other nations are joining the ranks of the Great, and we are now moving from super power to great power. Much like when Britain moved from being the super power of its day (the British Colonial Empire) to being a Great Power by the end of the First World War.

The consequences of this shift in the power balance are obvious. First and foremost, we must recognize that we are not the power of the world, but one of several. Second, we must realize what this means in terms of what we can do as a nation unilaterally. We have enough power, just enough, to handle the Iraqi War on our own. Compare that to when we had enough to take on the entire Japanese Empire on our own. And Iraq is no Japanese Empire in terms of capabilities and strengths. This means that we will need to talk to other nations and yes, get help. We can no longer try to be the single mother refusing to get help. If we want to accomplish specific goals, we will have to learn how to build coalitions with other nations. We will have to learn how to get along.

This is unpolished, mind you. And it needs to be expanded upon. However, it was written in regards of laying out the most basic premises of our foreign policy goals and for keeping this editorial and the platform paper short. [blurb]

Hopefully, this will give you all a rough idea of where we’re going. I’m looking forward to what will hopefully be a more active discussion, and it will be the debate that will help to crystallize the ideas present.


Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Damouse, posted 10-10-2006 11:54 PM kuresu has responded
 Message 27 by Damouse, posted 10-11-2006 12:01 AM kuresu has responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 28 of 35 (355785)
10-11-2006 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Damouse
10-10-2006 11:54 PM


Re: Introduction to the Christian Democratic Party--Foreign Policy
just to keep in mind--this whole thing is a work in progress, and how many platforms do you know of are very detailed? This is, as the thread title says, an introduction. now then, on to the points.

When the Great Depression set in, our economy crashed, and we recovered at the begining of the second world war. Herein lies a problem: how could there have been a second world war if everyone(including the germans) were economically defunct?

the german economy was being rebuilt by building up hitler's war machine, as well as the re-evaluation of the german mark. we were quite defunct economically until we built up our war machine to fight off Hitler and the japs.

And I'll still argue the military one. We have ten thousand nukes you say. Russia has five thousand. nukes don't really matter--unless you are trying to get one and have never had one before. If we are so powerful militarily with the nukes, why don't we just use them? After all, we can blow up twice as much as russia. conventional weapons are still the only capable weapons of war. you know, the whole mutually assured destruction keeps them from being used (at least for the moment).

In the last iraqi war, the UN did not support the invasion. while their support may not have been needed, we still just can't go around dissin' the friends we do have. Even if alliances are sometimes traps (such as the case in NATO or SEATO, the Triple Alliance or the Triple Entente) we need them if we are to manage to at least preserve the power we do have.

oh, and I never claimed to be a clear writer, especially when the topic is still muddy. half the point here is to help crystallize the party with debate.


Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Damouse, posted 10-10-2006 11:54 PM Damouse has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Damouse, posted 10-11-2006 12:19 AM kuresu has responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 29 of 35 (355788)
10-11-2006 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Damouse
10-11-2006 12:01 AM


Re: Introduction to the Christian Democratic Party--Foreign Policy
Okay, may as well explain the name history.

First we were the nationalists. then jar told me about this lovely neo-fascist group that had taken that name.

then we were the federalists--while no one has the name now, one of the first-two parties had this name--and wanted to keep the vote to the wealthy. not a good historical stigma.

then my friend and I settled on american party, but that sounded kind off weak, and it turns out, there is an american party already. Now then . . .

as to the christian democrats. It's the best name we've (well, jar actually) come up with--the union between the conservative bastion of christians and the democrats. a union between the typically conservative with the typically liberal. which is what we're aiming for--this is the party of findingthe middle ground between the two ideologies.

We may yet again change the name to CARD--christian american republican democrats (by jar). but I've got to run it over with my friend to see if he likes it too.

as to the whole religious freedom bit, I'd like to point you over to europe's christian democratic parties. They tend to be liberal, and while those nations still have a national religions (a carry over from the monarchial days), those of other religions are no longer persecuted.

(oh, and that comment about the puritans--yeah, they came over here for religious freedom--only to deny it to those who disagreed with their intrepatation of christianity)


Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Damouse, posted 10-11-2006 12:01 AM Damouse has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Damouse, posted 10-11-2006 12:28 AM kuresu has responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 32 of 35 (355793)
10-11-2006 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Damouse
10-11-2006 12:19 AM


Re: Introduction to the Christian Democratic Party--Foreign Policy
Yes but their economy was not shot because ours was, it was messed up because of the second world war.

please tell me that you mistyped this. otherwise I will have to hit you over the head just as much as you want to hit me for the name of the party.

the first german economic crisis was due to WWI and the massive reparations we forced on them. The Weimar republic began to rebuild the economy, so that it looked as if it had a chance by the late twenties. At which point, the US crashed, taking down Europe with it--and sending germany back into a second economic crisis--this time saved by Hitler and the buildup of his war machine.

As I mentioned--the only nukes we care about are those that people are trying to get--Iran and North Korea, specifically. You see, rational leaders will recognize the whole mutually assured destruction bit--and as much as they might hate their enemy, they won't use them just to die too. Can you say the same for a destabilized leader? Why do you think there is a IAE (and whatever else follows that acronym--the governing body for nukes). Why do you think the US (as far as we know) isn't making new nukes? Why do you think the US and Russia have been reducing their stockpiles?

As to your point about US military power--yes, we can still reach every corner of the globe--we can hit any beach within 48 hours, we can hit any target (by air) in a day. But pray tell me how we can respond with our army in the Korean peninsula when they're occupied with Iraq? That's a logistical nightmare--leave Iraq unprotected to fight back North Korea, never mind getting them there. Unless you seriously want to us to move back to a drafted army with no where near the level of training our current military has?

And how long can we continue to stretch ourselves? If we have allies, especially on the military side of things, it makes it easier for us to project our power--it may be, oh, say, Australia going into North Korea, but they are our friends and allies, so it may as well be us going in there.


Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Damouse, posted 10-11-2006 12:19 AM Damouse has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Damouse, posted 10-11-2006 12:04 PM kuresu has responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 33 of 35 (355794)
10-11-2006 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Damouse
10-11-2006 12:28 AM


Re: Introduction to the Christian Democratic Party--Foreign Policy
it's supposed to be inclusive--which is why we will probably settle on CARD.

yeah, I've read the scarlet letter. I agree that you don't mix religion and politics, but you have to realize that the republican bastion, especially in the south, is christian. We will have to make the distinction very clear, yes, but I think it's doable. Until someone comes up with a better name, it's going to be as it is. (keeping in mind the whole compromise, finding middle ground thing)


Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Damouse, posted 10-11-2006 12:28 AM Damouse has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021