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Author Topic:   Buzsaw's Belief Statement
jar
Member
Posts: 33882
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 22 of 59 (345691)
09-01-2006 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
09-01-2006 12:43 AM


OK, clear implication would be the more proper term. However "fall" is simply a description of the effect of the curse. The serpents fell short of long legs. Adam and eve fell from the easy life status to laborers. They both fell from imortality to mortality. They both fell the garden utopia. This was a catastrophic fall whether the word fall was in the text or not.

How can it be a Fall?

They were not immortal. The only thing that might have made them live forever would have been eating from the Tree of Life.

Adam and Eve went from being animals to being human, from being foragers and grazers like the pigs and mice to being food producers.

They went from being ignorant animals to adults that knew right from wrong.

What Fall?

Knowledge does not necessarily do anything for the status of anyone regarding anything in life. You can fall into a very deep pit to die having been the most knowledgeable person alive.

No, but ignorance does.

Edited by jar, : k-->g


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 12:43 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 9:43 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33882
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 24 of 59 (345870)
09-01-2006 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Buzsaw
09-01-2006 9:43 PM


There is no implication at all in the text that would place their intelligence on the level of brute beasts. The implication is that they only knew to do good and no evil thought or desire could program into their thinking.

Couple misconceptions in there buz. First, no one said anything about their intellegence. I said they were ignorant. Two different things.

Second, it is ABSOLUTELY false that they knew only how to do good. The Bible is quite clear on that, they simply knew no difference between right and wrong, good and evil.

Sorry buz but the Bible just doesn't say what you claim.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 9:43 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 10:42 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33882
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 27 of 59 (345887)
09-01-2006 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
09-01-2006 10:42 PM


You said they were ignorant animals. The only thing they were ignorant of that we know of was knowledge of good and evil which only God and the higher entities knew. To equate them to ignorant beasts is certainly not what is implied in the text.

Really buz? How were they any different than a pet dog? They were nothing but foraging animals, with NO knowledge of Good or Evil.

How were they any different than a faithful dog that wandered around, or the cow that comes to the fence?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 10:42 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 11:04 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33882
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 29 of 59 (345894)
09-01-2006 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Buzsaw
09-01-2006 10:51 PM


No. They could have went on forever having not eaten of the forbidden tree.

That just makes God a fool and liar, Buz. If it wasn't the Tree of Life that would have conferred immortality then why was God afraid that they would eat of it. They didn't get thrown out for the garden for eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil but because God feared they would eat from the Tree of Life.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 10:51 PM Buzsaw has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33882
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 31 of 59 (345901)
09-01-2006 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Buzsaw
09-01-2006 11:04 PM


No. They could have went on forever having not eaten of the forbidden tree. Their immortality would remain intact so long as they left it alone. Nothing is implied that they must disobey and eat of the tree to become mortal beings, falling from imortality.

In fact, A&E never had immortality and so did not lose it.

We agree that they were never immortal so your statement "Their immortality would remain intact so long as they left it alone" is simply nonsense. They were NOT immortal.

They were dumb ignorant animals. Saying "Nothing is implied that they must disobey and eat of the tree to become mortal beings, falling from imortality" is doubly wrong. First forbidding them from eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil would have NO meaning. They don't know right from wrong. It is like telling a snail not to climb the wall. It has no knowledge of right or wrong and so no way to obey. Second, they could not fall from something they never had.

Finally, Adam and Eve were NOT thrown out of the Garden of Eden because they ate from the Tree of Knowledge, but because God feared they would eat from the Tree of Life.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 11:04 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Buzsaw, posted 09-02-2006 6:12 PM jar has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33882
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 48 of 59 (347807)
09-09-2006 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Buzsaw
09-09-2006 3:35 PM


Re: Apples and Oranges
There you go contradicting yourself yet again, buz. In Message 28 you already said:

In fact, A&E never had immortality and so did not lose it.

If Adam and Eve never had immortality how can you claim...

quote:
The part I don't concede on however is on the fall. They still fell from immortality to mortality and fell in status from being garden dressers to full fledged ground tilling sweat of the brow farmers.

There was no Fall from immortality. It is simply not in the Bible.

The second part of your statement is as unsupportable as the first. Garden Dressers? Where exactly is that found in Genesis? What is the difference from having to tend the garden to being a farmer?

Edited by jar, : No reason given.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 09-09-2006 3:35 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Buzsaw, posted 09-16-2006 6:07 PM jar has taken no action

  
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