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Author Topic:   jar - On Christianity
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 6 of 307 (337372)
08-02-2006 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by RickJB
08-02-2006 4:38 AM


Well, I am an Episcopalian which is part of the Anglican Communion as is the CoE.

Jesus is less God incarnate and more of a spiritual teacher.

I would likely put that into two parts, one Jesus and the other Jesus while alive and among us.

I do believe that Jesus is GOD but while he was here on earth He was fully man, human, just like you, just like me.

I think lots of folk misunderstand the term incarnate. They have, if they even really think about it at all, some idea of incarnate means "God in Human Form" as though it was some costume GOD put on so he could sneak around and spy on the humans.

That makes as little sense theologically IMHO as the idea that Jesus let himself be killed as some blood sacrifice.

Jesus was a teacher. The information we have all says that everything he did during his life was to teach people. If the message was as some have said, that his followers are saved and the bad guys are gonna get it, Jesus lives the wrong story. In that story when it came time to lay hands on Him He would have swung around, flapped open his oilskin slicker, drawn his trusty Ivory handled six-guns, mowed down the Clancy Brothers and rid out of town leaving behind one silver bullet and on the ears of the wind, a hearty "Hi-Ho Silver, Away".

But Jesus is not some Masked Man. The power of the Jesus saga is that He is human.

A God cannot be tempted, Jesus was. And Jesus resisted. And the message is "humans can resist evil".

A God cannot be threated, Jesus was. And Jesus did not respond with more violence. And the message is "humans can try to find ways other than violence".

A God cannot die, Jesus did. And Jesus rose from the dead. And the message is "all humans will rise from the dead".

Just as I believe that we must be honest about the great Evil that Christians have done in the past and that Christians are doing now, I believe we must also be honest about what the message was.

It is not that Christians are saved and everyone else is damned.

It is that GOD gave us in the life of Jesus a clear lesson of what a human should do, and more importantly, can do.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 8 of 307 (337415)
08-02-2006 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by New Cat's Eye
08-02-2006 1:41 PM


Like a Ghost?
Catholic Scientist writes:

Yeah but Jesus was walking around like a ghost after he died, talking to people n'stuff. We aren't all gonna do that!

I wouldn't have described it as a ghost, and in fact, quite the opposite of that. He was very, very real, they could touch him, feel him, not just his presence but his physical body. He ate with them and walked with them and drank with them and continued teaching.

Why?

When I was in school, we often debated that very question, sitting on the little porch that was painted as so many porches were in those days with surplus battleship grey paint. Why did Jesus come back in the flesh, to walk and talk and eat and drink and laugh and share rememberances and plan the future.

I think it is part of the lesson.

There were several possible endings for Jesus story, it was, afterall, a story mostly told to a few individuals. For them to spread the word, they had to be convinced, convinced beyond a shadow of doubt.

The story could have ended with a body in the tomb.

The story could have ended with a body in the tomb and voices or visions appearing to the disciples.

The story could have ended with a body in the tomb and an apparition, visible but unsubstancial, appearing to the disciples.

The story could have ended with the tomb empty and either vioces, visions or an apparition appearing to the disciples.

I didn't though. It ends with an empty tomb and Jesus, in the flesh, returned from the grave, to walk, to talk, to laugh, to plan, to reminisce with the disciples. It is almost the final lesson that Jesus taught.

None of the other endings would have sufficed.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-02-2006 1:41 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-02-2006 5:07 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 10 of 307 (337452)
08-02-2006 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by New Cat's Eye
08-02-2006 5:07 PM


Re: Like a Ghost?
We will all rise from the dead, and IMHO there really is some form of afterlife. No, we will not be here, He said we would be with Him, but I imagine that will seem as real to us as what we experience today.

The point of the story, IMHO, is not that we would return here but home, that the life after death will be one of substance, one of reality.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-02-2006 5:07 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-02-2006 5:17 PM jar has replied
 Message 15 by GDR, posted 08-26-2006 6:24 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 12 of 307 (337955)
08-04-2006 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by New Cat's Eye
08-02-2006 5:17 PM


Re: Like a Ghost?
Actually, the more I think about it the more like customs I believe it will be, and even then, far more like the pre-1991 Canadian Border than Ellis Island.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 16 of 307 (343736)
08-26-2006 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by GDR
08-26-2006 6:24 PM


Re: Which world is real?
When you look at the world of QM I have to believe that the next life will be a lot more real than this one.

'course I don't see any connection between QM and spirituality or afterlife.

Yeah, NT Wright is interesting. Some of his stuff I agree with, lots that I don't. He does seem to have an interesting take on Pauline theology.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by GDR, posted 08-26-2006 6:24 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by GDR, posted 08-26-2006 7:05 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 18 of 307 (343745)
08-26-2006 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by GDR
08-26-2006 7:05 PM


Re: Which world is real?
Does it necessarily follow that where you don't agree with him he is wrong?

Not really.

I wasn't trying to make a direct conection. I'm just suggesting that with some physicists saying that time and space are illusions, with solid materials being something like 99.999999999999999999% empty space, and with suggestions that we are a projection I have to think that there is something unreal about where we are and that the next life is bound to be more real.

Could be. I guess I just see that as pretty pointless stuff to worry about.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 23 of 307 (344024)
08-27-2006 6:13 PM


Since it looks like this is turning into a humor thread.
Check out this page

I guess AOHell doesn't work in Hades.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by CK, posted 08-27-2006 6:33 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 26 of 307 (344031)
08-27-2006 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by CK
08-27-2006 6:33 PM


Re: Since it looks like this is turning into a humor thread.
Well, Gene "Beam the money up" SCOTTie is DAID. But the corporation marches on.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 29 of 307 (344055)
08-27-2006 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by CK
08-27-2006 6:33 PM


Re: Since it looks like this is turning into a humor thread.
This just keeps getting funnier.

willowtree writes:

Dr. Lloyd Jones: "Who is preaching the gospel ? Whoever is being slandered."

Love Ray's logic. To see just how funny Ray can be, see Message 13.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by CK, posted 08-27-2006 6:33 PM CK has taken no action

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 31 of 307 (344073)
08-27-2006 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by nator
08-27-2006 9:36 PM


Neo-Darwinist?
Nah, schraf, just a Christian.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 33 of 307 (344319)
08-28-2006 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Cold Foreign Object
08-28-2006 2:20 PM


Re: Questions
Do you believe that miracles can and have happened ?

Personally? Yes I believe that miracles have and do happen.

If not, then how can anyone trust the Bible since the book is loaded with reports of miracles ?

Well, even if the whole Bible is no more than tales told around the campfire the message is still of value.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-28-2006 2:20 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-28-2006 2:36 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 36 of 307 (344327)
08-28-2006 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Cold Foreign Object
08-28-2006 2:36 PM


Re: Questions
What is the central message of the Bible ?

Love GOD and love others as you love yourself.

It really is that simple.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-28-2006 2:36 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-28-2006 3:10 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 40 of 307 (344356)
08-28-2006 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Cold Foreign Object
08-28-2006 3:10 PM


Re: Questions
Here is the second half. It's just like the first half.

Loving GOD is done by loving others as you love yourself.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-28-2006 3:10 PM Cold Foreign Object has taken no action

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 43 of 307 (344366)
08-28-2006 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Archer Opteryx
08-28-2006 4:28 PM


Re: Questions
IMHO the other thing that must be emphasized is that the Second Commandment is a two parter. Before you can love others you must first love yourself. Until you can honestly handle that part, look at yourself, recognizing what you have done right, what you have done wrong, how you might do better, you cannot love others.

Christianity is simple, it is not easy. Folk like the fundie televangelists such as Gene Scott, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and all the other salvation for hire snake-oil salesmen seem to missunderstand everything Jesus said. It's not the show. It's not dramatic. It's not even notable or important.

Loving GOD is not profession, not even belief, it is the summation of all the little things you are and do. Loving GOD is an action, a continuing practice. It is listening to a child tell you about his day or helping someone reach a package on the shelf or unload their shopping cart or laughing when your child first discovers jokes or bringing in the neighbors trash can. It's nothing big, nothing important, nothing of any real merit.

It really is that simple.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 194 by GDR, posted 08-31-2006 12:23 AM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 49 of 307 (344437)
08-28-2006 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Archer Opteryx
08-28-2006 7:41 PM


Re: philadelphia
IMHO it is really an important point. The really hard part IMHO is that it requires you to really look at yourself honestly. It is none of the soft sentimental self-esteem bullshit that many folk try to sell, Rather it is an honest personal evaluation, that then leads to actual actions relating to what YOU do, then to what you do oustside.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-28-2006 7:41 PM Archer Opteryx has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by GDR, posted 08-28-2006 9:27 PM jar has replied
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