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Author Topic:   jar - On Christianity
ringo
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Message 75 of 307 (344753)
08-29-2006 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by robinrohan
08-29-2006 11:58 AM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
robinrohan writes:

It occurs to me that if Jesus had used a little more tact, he could have saved himself from being crucified and lived out his life as the good-humored party-goer you characterize him as.

He should have used more smilies when He wrote the Bible.


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ringo
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Posts: 19614
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Message 77 of 307 (344760)
08-29-2006 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by robinrohan
08-29-2006 2:35 PM


Re: Biblical tone
robinrohan writes:

Like this?

"There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.":D

Yes, if that's the point you're trying to make.

Otherwise, some bozo would think you meant literal wailing and gnashing of teeth. It's too bad that some people can't recognize humour unless it has big neon lights flashing "HUMOUR ---->".

Fewer people would be confused about he Bible if Percy had written the software.


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ringo
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Message 86 of 307 (344802)
08-29-2006 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
08-29-2006 4:51 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
jar writes:

Teacher while here on earth. Judge later.

I tend to think of it as a "judge-in-training" while here on earth, too - not necessarily that He needed to learn anything, but He needed to make His street-rep.

He needed to start at the bottom to establish his creds. He wasn't just the Boss's Son. He was one of us.


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ringo
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Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
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Message 90 of 307 (344808)
08-29-2006 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by robinrohan
08-29-2006 5:16 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
robinrohan writes:

He needed to start at the bottom to establish his creds.

I guess that's the point of the crucifixion rather than just dying of a heart attack or something.

No, I don't think there's any particular "point" to the crucifixion, except that it makes a dramtic climax for the movie. Jesus would have been just as much "one of us" if He had died of old age like George Burns or Nelson Mandela.


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ringo
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Message 124 of 307 (344919)
08-29-2006 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by GDR
08-29-2006 10:10 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
GDR writes:

I'm somewhat amazed at your logic that it is just fine for someone to make up a religion.

But everybody does make up their own religion.

Some internalize a lot of Christianity. Some internalize a lot of Hinduism. Some internalize a lot of Islam. But what you have inside you is what you synthesize from all of your experiences.

It's not some absolute, "true" religion. It's your own.


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ringo
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Message 129 of 307 (344938)
08-30-2006 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by GDR
08-29-2006 11:52 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
GDR writes:

That however is not the same thing as intentionally writing something that is intended to inform others about your faith that you know to be untruthful.

I have a problem with the way you use the word "untruthful".

It is certainly possible to convey "truth" through fiction. That is not remotely similar to lying.

It is one thing to err unintentionally, it is another to change the actual events in order to tell the story the way you want it told.

Jesus told lots of parables. He did change the "actual events" - or even made them up out of whole cloth - in order to tell the story the way He wanted it told.

Does a story have to have "---> PARABLE <---" in flashing neon lights for you to recognize it as fiction?


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Replies to this message:
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ringo
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Posts: 19614
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Message 132 of 307 (344943)
08-30-2006 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by GDR
08-30-2006 12:59 AM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
GDR writes:

Jar isn't saying that they were speaking metaphorically in the telling of the story but that they were quotemining the OT to make their story more believable.

I didn't say anything about metaphors. I was talking about using fiction to convey "truth". A fictionalized telling of the crucifixion story doesn't diminish it's value in any way.

Can we agree that the gospel writers may not (probably did not) witness the crucifixion in person? If they didn't, their accounts are second-hand already, only as "truthful" as the versions that they heard.

Even if they were eyewitnesses, there would have been conversations that they didn't actually hear (the trial in front of the Sanhedrin comes to mind). Is it not permissible to "make up" some of the dialog to get one's point across?

I think you put too much emphasis on the words and not enough on the message in the words.

Edited by Ringo, : Recaptured an escaped word.


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 Message 134 by GDR, posted 08-30-2006 1:53 AM ringo has replied

ringo
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Message 136 of 307 (344953)
08-30-2006 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by GDR
08-30-2006 1:53 AM


GDR writes:

Except that one doesn't use fiction without making it clear that it is fiction.

I have a book that purports to be the "true" biography of James Bond. Truth or fiction?

If it is fiction masquerading as literal truth then it's untruthful

Who says the Bible is "masquerading" as truth?
I'll ask again: Do you need a neon sign flashing "---> FICTION <---"?

John's Gospel strongly implies that he was there.

The "true" biography of James Bond strongly implies - i.e. states flat out - that the author interviewed James Bond in person. Treasure Island strongly implies that Jim Hawkins was an eyewitness.
Truth or fiction?

With the possible exception of Luke they would all have gotten the information either first or second hand.

There's a good reason why second-hand testimony isn't acceptable in a court of law - it's unreliable.

The dialogue is written in such a way that I am led to believe that it is a telling of how it actually happened.

A lot of writers write good dialog. Good dialog is not a sign of "truth".

And what about the dialog that they most likely didn't witness - e.g. the trial(s)?

The message of the cross is central to my faith.

Maybe the message of Jesus should be central to your faith.


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Replies to this message:
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ringo
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Posts: 19614
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Message 139 of 307 (344963)
08-30-2006 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by GDR
08-30-2006 2:36 AM


GDR writes:

Of course I read the Bible differently than I would Treasure Island.

But why?

It wasn't all second hand and this isn't a court of law.

Our standards should be higher, not lower.

In all likelihood at least Matthew and John witnessed the trial. Also Mark collaborated with Peter who was at the trial.

It seems to me that we have threads in the Bible Inaccuracy and Errancy Forum that suggest that the trial itself is historically implausible - a bit like Alice's trial beyond the looking-glass.

How do you read the Bible? Do you see any validity in any of it?

Are you paying attention at all? I see the Bible as much more valid than a mere historical document. Yesterday's news is fit for wrapping fish and lining birdcages, but fiction can convey timeless truth.

Is it just a book of good moral teachings or is it not even that?

There are good moral teachings in it. There's good poetry in it. There are good adventure yarns in it. There's humour in it. I don't know why you would use the adjective "just".

Is there any divine inspiration anywhere in it?

*shrug* I think there's divine inspiration in Hemingway too.

If so; how much?

Six pounds. (How do you measure "divine inspiration"?)

Is any of it to be taken literally?

Not much. As I said, it's better than that.

Is Jesus God incarnate, a prophet, a good man or did He even exist at all.

Doesn't really matter. It's the message that matters.

I see the creation story and other many other OT stories as being true metaphors but I read the story of the crucifiction as being a fair and accurate account.

I've asked other literalists how they separate metaphor from literal truth and I've never gotten a straight answer. How do you?

... what Jesus did on the cross is a huge part of the message.

Not really. What He did off the cross was much more important.


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ringo
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Message 144 of 307 (345040)
08-30-2006 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by robinrohan
08-30-2006 8:14 AM


robinrohan writes:

Jar "believes" that he understands Jesus' message better than those who lived in that era, in that culture.

Those who lived in that era, in that culture crucified Jesus. How "understanding" is that?


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ringo
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Message 146 of 307 (345058)
08-30-2006 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by robinrohan
08-30-2006 1:56 PM


robinrohan writes:

I mean whoever wrote the Bible.

You don't necessarily get the best view of the forest by pressing your nose up against one tree. Sometimes distance gives a better perspective.


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ringo
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Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 151 of 307 (345114)
08-30-2006 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by robinrohan
08-30-2006 2:57 PM


Re: The Lens of Time
robinrohan writes:

Brian's thread on the incident with Barrabas is intended to painstakingly investigate what would have been well-known to anyone who lived in that time and in that area.

That's an entirely different situation.

Sure, Jesus' contemporaries knew more about their own culture and traditions than we do.
But we're talking about Jesus' philosophy.

Remember that He came to earth for the express purpose of overturning a lot of the traditions and practices that went against His phlosophy. Small wonder that his contemporaries would misconstrue Him - intentionally or not - in order to preserve at least some of their comfortable status quo.

Jar wants to ignore such passages because it doesn't make sense to him. He wants to "modernize" the ideas so that it WILL make sense to him.

You may be starting to catch on. :)

What was written in the Bible was written from the perspective of 1st century traditions and practices. But Christianity ought to be timeless.

It ought to be for us as much as it was for Jesus' contemporaries. So of course we have to "modernize" it so that it WILL make sense to us.

Do you think we should still be living by "Don't pull your ox out of a pit on the sabbath"? Do you think it's okay to put in seven-day weeks at the office just because you don't own an ox?


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Replies to this message:
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ringo
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Message 156 of 307 (345153)
08-30-2006 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by iano
08-30-2006 6:15 PM


Re: iano
iano writes:

Truth is not in need of 'modernisation' otherwise it wouldn't be truth.

The application of "truth" has to be up to date, or it has no value.


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ringo
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Message 159 of 307 (345170)
08-30-2006 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by iano
08-30-2006 6:42 PM


iano writes:

Turn the other cheek? I can't do that

If I slap you, you'll turn the other cheek and like it. :D


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ringo
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Posts: 19614
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Message 162 of 307 (345182)
08-30-2006 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by robinrohan
08-30-2006 6:50 PM


Re: The Lens of Time
iano writes:

I'm talking about concepts not practices.

Screw the concepts. Practices are all that matter.

Which is why you have such a poor understanding of things like "propitiation".

There is certainly talk in the NT about the fact that we do love ourselves, but it's not seen as some merit or something that we must learn to do. It's just taken as a granted fact about human nature.

I really don't know why you and robin are so confused about that.

If you really do love yourself already, no problem.
Go out and love thy neighbour exactly the same way that you love yourself.

But your posts and robin's posts don't ring true (to me and to some others around here) as coming from people who love themselves.

I would hesitate to use a word like "self-loathing", but... what's yer shoe size?


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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