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Author Topic:   jar - On Christianity
GDR
Member (Idle past 227 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 14 of 307 (343727)
08-26-2006 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Cold Foreign Object
08-26-2006 3:42 PM


Herepton writes:

With beliefs like these I am glad Jar is a Darwinist. You can have this freak.

Maybe Ray you should start wearing a WWJS bracelet. (What Would Jesus Say?) That type of statement is what I suggest happens to those who get caught up in legalism to the detriment of the great commandment of our Lord which is to love God and love our neighbour.

Not much love there is there. :(


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-26-2006 3:42 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-26-2006 7:54 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 227 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 15 of 307 (343733)
08-26-2006 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
08-02-2006 5:15 PM


Which world is real?
Hi jar

jar writes:

We will all rise from the dead, and IMHO there really is some form of afterlife. No, we will not be here, He said we would be with Him, but I imagine that will seem as real to us as what we experience today.
The point of the story, IMHO, is not that we would return here but home, that the life after death will be one of substance, one of reality.

Well put. When you look at the world of QM I have to believe that the next life will be a lot more real than this one.

Incidently. There are two writers that you might want to take a look at. The first one I've had reccomended to me but I haven't read yet.

He is a retired U of Oxford professor named Keith Ward.

http://www.oup.co.uk/academic/humanities/religion/viewpoint/keith_ward/

The second is the current Bishop of Durham named N.T. Wright.

I'm half way through his book "Simply Christian" and am finding it an excellent read and in my view is a great book to read after reading "Mere Christianity"

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060507152

http://www.ntwrightpage.com/

Thanks for your posts. Even the ones I don't agree with. :)

Greg

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 08-02-2006 5:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 08-26-2006 6:35 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 227 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 17 of 307 (343742)
08-26-2006 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
08-26-2006 6:35 PM


Re: Which world is real?
jar writes:

'course I don't see any connection between QM and spirituality or afterlife.

I wasn't trying to make a direct conection. I'm just suggesting that with some physicists saying that time and space are illusions, with solid materials being something like 99.999999999999999999% empty space, and with suggestions that we are a projection I have to think that there is something unreal about where we are and that the next life is bound to be more real.

jar writes:

Yeah, NT Wright is interesting. Some of his stuff I agree with, lots that I don't. He does seem to have an interesting take on Pauline theology.

Does it necessarily follow that where you don't agree with him he is wrong? :)


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 08-26-2006 6:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 08-26-2006 7:11 PM GDR has taken no action

GDR
Member (Idle past 227 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 20 of 307 (343755)
08-26-2006 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Cold Foreign Object
08-26-2006 7:54 PM


Fine. You disagree with his theology. How does that justify you making the statement that "you can have this freak".

I disagree with lots of people, (as do most others on this forum), without calling them a freak. I like to think that as Christians we're held to a much higher standing than that. Frankly I think that as human beings we're called to a higher standard than that.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
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GDR
Member (Idle past 227 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 24 of 307 (344026)
08-27-2006 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Cold Foreign Object
08-27-2006 5:22 PM


Re: TEists/Jar belong to Satan
It's a funny thing Ray but you know when I read your "freak" comment the first thing that occured to me was that Christians that take your position of extreme literalism are the modern equivalents of the NT Pharisees.

You are following along the exact same path that the Pharisees did 2000 years ago. You pour through scriptures, taking a literalist reading of them, and then claim that the important thing is about following the laws that you come up with which includes that everything in the Bible is to be read literally.

The Bible is to be read for the timeless spiritual truths that are found there. It is God's revelation to us and you minimalize its message by insisting that it is to be read literally instead of trying to comprehend the spiritual message that can be found in its many metaphors. It is a message of love not the condemnation that you are engaging in right now. Jesus said that everything hinges on love of God and love of neighbour. IMHO I'm not seeing either in your posts in this thread.

Greg


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-27-2006 5:22 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-28-2006 2:32 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 227 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 45 of 307 (344407)
08-28-2006 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Cold Foreign Object
08-28-2006 2:32 PM


Re: TEists/Jar belong to Satan
Herepton writes:

Greg's subjective and sourceless opinions prove that if you want accurate information about the Bible: do not consult a Darwinist/atheist.

This is the thing about literalists. If one doesn't agree with their specific view, which in essence makes a deity out of the Bible, I'm not a Christian.

I am convinced of the truth of the fact that Jesus was/is God incarnate, that He died on the cross and was resurrected. I'm also convinced that I have had a life changing experience of the Holy Spirit.

In Ray's view that all counts for nothing but as long as I take it on faith that the the Bible is to be taken as literal truth, (and how many literalists can actually agree as to what the Bible literally says anyway), then I could call myself a Christian.

Go figure. :(


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

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GDR
Member (Idle past 227 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 50 of 307 (344474)
08-28-2006 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
08-28-2006 7:54 PM


Re: philadelphia
jar writes:

IMHO it is really an important point. The really hard part IMHO is that it requires you to really look at yourself honestly. It is none of the soft sentimental self-esteem bullshit that many folk try to sell, Rather it is an honest personal evaluation, that then leads to actual actions relating to what YOU do, then to what you do oustside.

IMHO I think that you're ascribing too literal a meaning to that text. Jesus was quoting the scripture from Leviticus when He made the statement about "loving your neighbour as yourself", when he was asked which is the greatest of the commandments, referring to the Jewish scripture. His answer was limited to what was written in the those scriptures.

The whole story of the NT is that we are to be imitators of Christ. Christ loved us enough that he died for us. We are actually called upon to love our neighbours more than ourselves. Eph 5: 1-2 says: "Be imitators of God, therefore as dearly beloved children 2; and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to Go."


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 08-28-2006 7:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 08-28-2006 9:30 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 227 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 52 of 307 (344483)
08-28-2006 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
08-28-2006 9:30 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
I would agree that both are true, although I am with you in that I don't understand Him dying for us either, but I believe that it is part of his message so I take it on faith. I don't expect to understand everything.

Let's stick to Him living for us. His whole life was a life of service to others. He could have been a powerful figure in the church and lived a life style that would have been the envy of the vast majority of that society.

He didn't. He put others ahead of himself and lived a life of relative poverty in order to fulfill his mission to others. In other words he loved his neighbour more than himself, and we are called to do likewise. Again I think that when you look at Christ's quote from Leviticus you are taking too literal a reading of it. He is just quoting the Jewish scripture.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 08-28-2006 9:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 08-28-2006 9:56 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 227 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 54 of 307 (344489)
08-28-2006 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by jar
08-28-2006 9:56 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."

It was a response to a "teacher of the law" who was asking which was the most important of the laws as presented in Jewish scripture. Christ's teachings went beyond what was written in the OT.


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 Message 55 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-28-2006 10:56 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 227 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 57 of 307 (344589)
08-29-2006 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Archer Opteryx
08-28-2006 10:56 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
Archer Opterix writes:

You're suggesting this summation was incomplete in some way. I don't see how. Everything in Christ's teachings expresses the same categories--loving God or loving others.

It's an excellent summation.

I agree that it is an excellent summation of OT law. Christ's life and teaching went beyond that. Christ's life gave us the example of living for others. It wasn't just a matter of balancing off his own needs with his ministry, but it was about a life of total service. We are called to love our neighbours more than we love ourselves. That is the message of the whole NT.

Frankly, IMHO that is one of the problems with literalism. If you take the statement of loving your neighbour as you love yourself literally you are only get a part of the message. When you take the Bible, Christ's life and human experience together it is obvious that a life of service that is born from a true love of others is a life full of joy. Those that spend their lives looking after number one find that in the end they are serving a god that can never be satisfied.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

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 Message 58 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 8:42 AM GDR has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 227 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 59 of 307 (344670)
08-29-2006 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by jar
08-29-2006 8:42 AM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
jar writes:

I don't quite see that or that his message is of total service. His message was about living life. He partied, threw fishfries, went to weddings, laughed and cried with his friends, played jokes on them and chided them at times.

I life of service is a life of joy. Isn't it an act of service and love to bring acceptance and laughter to others at a party? The neighbour that you are to love can actually be the guy who lives next door, your best friend or even your spouse and the kids.

jar writes:

Jesus did not make EVERY lame person walk, or all the blind to see or raise all the dead or cure every leper he passed. He lived life. He did not seek out the sick, the lame, the blind, the leper.

And He still doesn't. However, His whole life was, (and is), focused on loving others, whether it was by what He did or by what He said. We are an eternal people. Sure it is wonderful to see a leper cured, or to have the blind see but in the final analysis those are cures in a temporal world. Isn't it far better to be spiritually cured in an eternal existence. In that way he brought the cure for every man, woman and child. It is up to us to take the medicine.

jar writes:

He didn't open a clinic or hospital, nor a soup kitchen or church. He lived life. When an opportunity came along he took it.

Absolutely. He lived life as he encountered it then. Paul writes that the greatest gift of the Spirit is love and we are called to use that gift when we encounter an opportunity in our time.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

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GDR
Member (Idle past 227 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 80 of 307 (344775)
08-29-2006 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by jar
08-29-2006 3:34 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
jar writes:

When you die though you will be judged. And you will be judged individually, uniquely, against yourself. Did you try to do what is right and not do what is wrong?

I would agree that there is absolute right and absolute wrong. The trouble is only God knows what those absolutes are. For that reason alone I have trouble putting the emphasis on what we do, or even try to do.

If we can't be sure of what is right or wrong then it stands to reason that there must be something deeper that determines our future in the next life.

As you said earlier the Christian message is about love. I would suggest that it is love that determines our future. I agree that we should love ourselves to the degree that we are grateful to God for our existence but the love that God is concerned with is how we love others.

Greater love has no man than he lay down his life for his friends. In order to do that you are required to love others more than yourself.

To put it another way; it is my belief that the basis for our deciding what is right and wrong, (and whether we choose what we believe to be right as opposed to what is best for ourselves), is the gift of love which God has given to us.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 3:34 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 4:02 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 227 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 82 of 307 (344789)
08-29-2006 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
08-29-2006 4:02 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
jar writes:

When you die though you will be judged. And you will be judged individually, uniquely, against yourself. Did you try to do what is right and not do what is wrong?

GDR writes:

I would agree that there is absolute right and absolute wrong. The trouble is only God knows what those absolutes are. For that reason alone I have trouble putting the emphasis on what we do, or even try to do.

jar writes:

I wouldn't. I don't think there is any such thing.

Well if God doesn't decide what is right and wrong then who does?

jar writes:

When you die though you will be judged. And you will be judged individually, uniquely, against yourself. Did you try to do what is right and not do what is wrong?

jar writes:

The judgement will be on what you did and what you might have done, and the Judge will have perfect knowledge of both.

OK let's assume that there is no absolute right and wrong then it becomes, IMHO, even more obvious that the standard can't be based on our ability to choose right and wrong, or what we have done. I still contend that the basis of our relationship with God is love and that is how the nature of our next life is determined. I stand by my previous post.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 4:02 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 4:38 PM GDR has replied

GDR
Member (Idle past 227 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 94 of 307 (344814)
08-29-2006 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by jar
08-29-2006 4:38 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
jar writes:

GOD will judge us on what we did and what our own unique capabilities were. But he will judge you against YOU and me against ME.

Fair enough. In the end however the only way that that we can make the moral decisions that God would have us make as individuals, is to respond in the affirmative to the message of love that God has written on our hearts.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 4:38 PM jar has taken no action

GDR
Member (Idle past 227 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 98 of 307 (344818)
08-29-2006 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by jar
08-29-2006 5:20 PM


Re: Better here than philadelphia
jar writes:

I think that is important and also to understand that while He was here on earth He really was human. He had no powers that every other human doesn't have. The difference was that he showed us by example what a human really can be, what really is possible.
I see everything as GOD teaching us a lesson. Here is HUMAN. Here is LOVING. Here is ANGER. Here is TRUST. Here is VISION. Here is FAITH. Here is LIFE.

Now that you good folk see what can be done, try to do it. It's likely you will fail, but if you do, get up, dust yourself off and try again.

Why the cross at all then? Sure He was a great teacher. We've had many great teachers including the OT prophets. What makes Jesus more than a prophet? (Or is He?)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 5:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 08-29-2006 5:51 PM GDR has replied

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