I don't really see what the Fall has to do with christianity specifically.
It is why we need a Savior.
Isn't it also part of the jewish tradition?
No, they don't believe in the Fall.
after all, adam is their forefather, as is noah.
Adam is the father of the entire human race, not just the Jews. Noah is considered by the Jews to be something along the lines of the Moses of the Gentiles, as they say all nonJews are to follow the code of Law God gave Noah, whereas the Jews are to follow the Law of Moses. Abraham is the father of the Jews.
adam and eve commited original sin, noah survived (the fall?).
Original sin, Adam and Eve's disobedience of God, IS the Fall. Noah survived the worldwide Flood, which was God's punishment for all the sin that had accumulated in the world to that point because of the Fall.
So saying that Jar's not a christian (or whatever) because he doesn't accept that the fall occured is really pointless.
Robin is making the point that most of Christianity, and particularly the Christian writers he mentioned, all treat the Fall as important, so jar's brand of Christianity is something else.
I thought the key part about christianity was accepting Jesus as your savior--not believing in a fall.
True, but it is good to learn WHY one needs a savior, and that is because of the sin that entered the world with the Fall of our first parents.
I do believe that Jesus is GOD but while he was here on earth He was fully man, human, just like you, just like me.
I can accept the belief that Jesus had no power of his own, but only what God chose to use through Him.
jar writes:
Just as I believe that we must be honest about the great Evil that Christians have done in the past and that Christians are doing now, I believe we must also be honest about what the message was.
It is not that Christians are saved and everyone else is damned.
It is that GOD gave us in the life of Jesus a clear lesson of what a human should do, and more importantly, can do.
OK, great. So everyone starts out saved rather than damned. Its a free gift. Got it. Yet we still get judged by what we DO versus what we COULD have done? If so, I hope that God liberally applies grace and forgiveness. NONE of us will fully do what we could have done.
jar,in response to CatholicScientist writes:
We will all rise from the dead, and IMHO there really is some form of afterlife. No, we will not be here, He said we would be with Him, but I imagine that will seem as real to us as what we experience today.
The point of the story, IMHO, is not that we would return here but home, that the life after death will be one of substance, one of reality.
How do these beliefs square with the latest scientific theories on (get this) not just a universe, but a potential multiverse. Sounds to me as if you believe that we humans will get to continue living, questioning, and growing [u]on our own[/u].
An interesting belief.
Heaven does sound sort of juvenile, if a Creator needs a bunch of people praising Him and worshiping Him eternally. I cant take that as literal, (and yes, Iano and jaywill..I DID get saved, if that matters! ) but the problem I have with your beliefs, jar, is that you stress this notion of personal responsibility so adamantly. Whats gonna happen if everyone is someday fed and clothed? Are we supposed to jet through the multiverse collectively helping other civilizations?
jar writes:
Well, even if the whole Bible is no more than tales told around the campfire the message is still of value.
The SOURCE versus CONTENT argument makes sense to me. Even if GOD wrote the Bible, the content is more important than the idea that God wrote it.
jar writes:
IMHO the other thing that must be emphasized is that the Second Commandment is a two parter. Before you can love others you must first love yourself. Until you can honestly handle that part, look at yourself, recognizing what you have done right, what you have done wrong, how you might do better, you cannot love others.
Christianity is simple, it is not easy. Folk like the fundie televangelists such as Gene Scott, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and all the other salvation for hire snake-oil salesmen seem to misunderstand everything Jesus said. It's not the show. It's not dramatic. It's not even notable or important.
Loving GOD is not profession, not even belief, it is the summation of all the little things you are and do. Loving GOD is an action, a continuing practice. It is listening to a child tell you about his day or helping someone reach a package on the shelf or unload their shopping cart or laughing when your child first discovers jokes or bringing in the neighbors trash can. It's nothing big, nothing important, nothing of any real merit.
Yet the injustices of this world continue today as they have for many years. This gets back to the parables. Nobody wants to sacrifice their own comfort to help others. We as humans can easily give out of our abundance, and in fact seek abundance in order to feel secure. If God chooses to kill me for that, I cant argue with Her!
A note to current EvC members: Robin Rohan died a few years ago. Dont reply to him in this thread. It makes me think, though. I could die tomorrow. What would my life be remembered for? Would it matter? Would I be happy, sad, or simply non-existent?
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.' Lewis Carroll
* * * * * * * * * * Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important.~T.S.Eliot
OK, great. So everyone starts out saved rather than damned. Its a free gift. Got it. Yet we still get judged by what we DO versus what we COULD have done? If so, I hope that God liberally applies grace and forgiveness. NONE of us will fully do what we could have done.
No, we do not start off saved, we do not start off damned either.
If there is salvation, then the salvation is a free gift, not something earned.
Phat writes:
How do these beliefs square with the latest scientific theories on (get this) not just a universe, but a potential multiverse.
They do not square with ANY scientific evidence.
Phat writes:
Yet the injustices of this world continue today as they have for many years. This gets back to the parables. Nobody wants to sacrifice their own comfort to help others. We as humans can easily give out of our abundance, and in fact seek abundance in order to feel secure. If God chooses to kill me for that, I cant argue with Her!
But we are charged and I believe will be judged based on whether or not we tried to stop injustices, make reparations and restitution.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
I wish more people had a mind to view things as objectively as you have in that post.
I claim to be a Christian because I go to church. I go to church because it helps me be a better person.
I receive a lot of heat for not following the status quo ( Christian or otherwise) But when I look at myself in the mirror I get comfort out of believing I do not lie to myself.
Edited by tesla, : No reason given.
keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is ~parmenides
In a recent topic started by our self proclaimed Gnostic Christian, Greatest I AM--he challenges us to describe Jesus and our views of Him.
This old topic by jar gives jars response--(I figured I was better off quoting jar directly rather than attempting to paraphrase which I always seem to get wrong!
jar writes:
I do believe that Jesus is GOD but while he was here on earth He was fully man, human, just like you, just like me.
I think lots of folk misunderstand the term incarnate. They have, if they even really think about it at all, some idea of incarnate means "God in Human Form" as though it was some costume GOD put on so he could sneak around and spy on the humans.
That makes as little sense theologically IMHO as the idea that Jesus let himself be killed as some blood sacrifice.
Jesus was a teacher. The information we have all says that everything he did during his life was to teach people. If the message was as some have said, that his followers are saved and the bad guys are gonna get it, Jesus lives the wrong story. In that story when it came time to lay hands on Him He would have swung around, flapped open his oilskin slicker, drawn his trusty Ivory handled six-guns, mowed down the Clancy Brothers and rid out of town leaving behind one silver bullet and on the ears of the wind, a hearty "Hi-Ho Silver, Away".
But Jesus is not some Masked Man. The power of the Jesus saga is that He is human.
A God cannot be tempted, Jesus was. And Jesus resisted. And the message is "humans can resist evil".
A God cannot be threated, Jesus was. And Jesus did not respond with more violence. And the message is "humans can try to find ways other than violence".
A God cannot die, Jesus did. And Jesus rose from the dead. And the message is "all humans will rise from the dead".
Just as I believe that we must be honest about the great Evil that Christians have done in the past and that Christians are doing now, I believe we must also be honest about what the message was.
It is not that Christians are saved and everyone else is damned.
It is that GOD gave us in the life of Jesus a clear lesson of what a human should do, and more importantly, can do.
My "Club" has always maintained that Jesus essentially stepped out of eternity (As He Was In The Beginning) into time in order to be a solution to the problem of Original Sin. The way I see it, God created a free willed lucifer who chose to become satan. When God created good and evil, God essentially created only the possibility of evil---which had to be initially actualized--through choice---by Lucifer.
Most "Clubs" stick with the story that Jesus is fully GOD and fully human.
I see Jesus as with GOD in the beginning....GOD as human, in other words.
God created war so that Americans would learn geography. –Mark Twain "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain
Why are you posting material in a thread that has already been placed in summation mode only to take one piece of what I wrote in this thread out of context?
Sheesh.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
™ Version 4.0 Beta
) but the problem I have with your beliefs, jar, is that you stress this notion of personal responsibility so adamantly. Whats gonna happen if everyone is someday fed and clothed? Are we supposed to jet through the multiverse collectively helping other civilizations? 