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Author Topic:   Belief Statement - jar
ringo
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Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 151 of 300 (326623)
06-26-2006 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by iano
06-26-2006 7:53 PM


iano writes:

Think of it as your mother telling you to "brush your teeth" then when they start falling out of your head, realising she was making sense.

The problem with that analogy *ahem* is that somebody, at some point in time, had to figure it out for themselves - i.e. without external guidance. If that person can do it, why can't anybody else do it? Why does anybody need the external "nudge"? And if one human being figures out one thing and another human being figures out something else, why do we need to pretend that that knowledge came from "outside"?


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ringo
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Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 154 of 300 (326640)
06-26-2006 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by iano
06-26-2006 8:33 PM


iano writes:

When was there a time in which there was no external guidance. In your opinion?

There was never any "external guidance". It's all ours all the time - some individual, some collective. That's why atheists can behave as well as Christians - if not better.

It's all for our benefit, not some external entity's. That's what the knowledge of good and evil is all about. We have it - it's our own responsibility to use it.

Jesus came to tell us to trust our internal guidance system and not to trust the religionists who claim to have all the answers.


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ringo
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Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 156 of 300 (326656)
06-26-2006 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by iano
06-26-2006 9:05 PM


iano writes:

... each and every one of our "internal guidance systems" being tied to a piece of cable, the other end of which gets rawl-bolted into the earths surface.

You've got it wrong. Our umbilical cords are attached to each other, not to anything external.

Maybe you've heard of "Love thy neighbour as thyself"? Part of that includes having respect for thy neighbour's internal guidance system.

We can only trust the internal guidance systems because there are so many external ones. If you don't trust a Muslim's, why should he trust yours? Why should I trust yours, for that matter?


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ringo
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Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 221 of 300 (327663)
06-30-2006 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Faith
06-30-2006 1:19 AM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
Faith writes:

... what else could the blood be that has to be shed to save us if not a payment, a sacrifice in our place?

It's a symbol, refering back to the blood of the Old Testament lambs. The lambs' blood signified who was protected and who was not - it had no saving power in itself.

It's simply ludicrous to suggest that God had to shed His own blood to pay Himself to forgive us.

I can't think of how we are saved by his death otherwise.

Nobody is saved by Jesus' death. We benefit from His life, but we are saved by God's grace.


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 Message 223 by Faith, posted 06-30-2006 2:00 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
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Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 225 of 300 (327670)
06-30-2006 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Faith
06-30-2006 2:00 AM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
Faith writes:

Christ's death is not the symbol, the lamb's blood was the symbol....

I didn't say Christ's death was a symbol - I said His blood was a symbol. That's the only significance it has - a sign of God's protection. Blood has no "saving" power.

... the OT animal sacrifices of all kinds were foreshadowings of His death in our place.

The Old Testament animal sacrifices were a food source for the priests.

Jesus died as perfect Man in our place....

Jesus died because He was a man. All men die, regardless of His death.

Says there that he died for us, to pay for our sins. Says so in so many words.

He died because He lived - His sacrifice was His life, not His death. The "remission" of our sins was a fait accompli, which He came to tell us, and He could only tell us effectively in the form of a man.

It's simply ludicrous to suggest that God's Son had to shed His blood to pay His Father to forgive us.


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 Message 223 by Faith, posted 06-30-2006 2:00 AM Faith has responded

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 Message 226 by Faith, posted 06-30-2006 3:21 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 227 of 300 (327674)
06-30-2006 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Faith
06-30-2006 3:21 AM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
Faith writes:

The blood of the animal sacrifices was the symbol of the Real Thing, which is the blood shed by Christ for our sins.

You have it backwards. Jesus' blood is only symbolic in that it refers back to the blood on the doorposts that signified God's protection.

Jesus' death did nothing but give us a sign?

No. The purpose of Jesus' death was not to give us a sign. The sign is just a symbolism that can be read into His death.

I call that outlandish extravagant waste to allow Him to die just for a sign if, as you claim, his value to us is in His life alone. Does not compute.

Jesus had to die because He was a man. His death was no more a "waste" than any other man's death. As I said, the "sign" was just a symbol, not a purpose.

All that ritual just to feed the priests?

The sacrifices were to feed the priests. The ritual was to impress the faithful. I don't know why you find that strange. Every other "false" religion did exactly the same thing.

The priestly rituals are incredibly elaborate and the center of their work is the sacrifices for the sins of the people.

The rituals were elaborate and the laws were elaborate to keep the people dependent on the priests.

I understand that you feel free to make up your own scripture as so many do, since the Bible is the only thing that could possibly contradict you, and once you've disposed of that, as you also feel free to do, might as well invent your own religion, right?

I've discussed this before in other threads and I don't recall you being there. If you want to get into what the scriptures really say, instead of your pet dogma, feel free to open a thread on the subject.

So you don't mind contradicting all those apostles and Jesus Himself, whom I quoted in Message 214?

I don't mind contradicting your misinterpretation.

An important consideration in reading the Bible is that one's interpretation should not be nonsensical. The idea of God "paying Himself" with his Son's blood is utterly nonsensical. Therefore, it is necessary to find a better interpretation.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Faith, posted 06-30-2006 3:21 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Faith, posted 06-30-2006 4:10 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 229 of 300 (327676)
06-30-2006 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Faith
06-30-2006 4:10 AM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
Faith writes:

The scriptures I quoted don't require any fancy interpretation to understand.

I don't propose a "fancy" interpretation. I propose a simple one: blood symbolizes life. Jesus gave His life to tell us that God forgives our debt. He gave up His life because all men do.

Simple.

you refuse to submit to the scriptures...

Yes, I do. The scriptures must submit to the real world and to sensible interpretation. The map is not the territory.

... or the historic understanding of them...

The historic interpretation that brought us slavery and geocentrism? None of that for me, thanks.

... but impose your own will on them.

No, I just try to make some sense of them. That's something the inerrantists and dogmatists never do.

Edited by Ringo, : spelling


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 Message 228 by Faith, posted 06-30-2006 4:10 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 236 by Phat, posted 06-30-2006 11:00 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 231 of 300 (327679)
06-30-2006 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Faith
06-30-2006 4:34 AM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
Faith writes:

He could have TOLD us without dying.

Of course He could have.

But He chose to become a man. That's why He had to die - not to "pay Himself".

He died because He was a man.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 239 of 300 (327757)
06-30-2006 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Phat
06-30-2006 11:00 AM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
Phat writes:

Just so Im clear on your beliefs, Ringo

Y'know, I don't even like to call them "beliefs". It's not the "I do, I do, I do believe in spooks!" that we hear so often from professing Christians. It's more like a way of looking at things.

Do You believe that Jesus is alive today?

I'm not completely convinced that Jesus was ever alive, but it doesn't matter. If God came down to earth as an incarnation 2000 years ago, then no, that incarnation would not exist today. That's not to say the "Jesus aspect" of God isn't still a part of God, but Jesus is not "alive" today in the biological sense of the word "alive".

Whose will does and/or should operate in our lives? Our will or Gods will?

If God gave us "free will", then it is our will that should operate in our lives. God's commandments are for our benefit, not His. He has no "will" for us, other than that we be happy.

In other words, it is no longer I who live but Christ living through me....

No offense, but I would call that meaningless mumbo-jumbo. God gave us brains and He expects us to use them, not be obedient automatons. Christ lives "through us" in the sense that He was our Teacher and our Example. He was not our autopilot.

I believe that most, if not all of my better actions were His Spirit in me working and acting according to His good pleasure.

quote:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

God's spirit is in all of us, from our "creation". The knowledge of good and evil is in all of us. Our better actions are the result of those two features of our "design" - not of a hands-on day-to-day "driver".

Quite frankly, your attitude sounds like an excuse: if we don't "do the right thing", it's because God didn't motivate us. We are responsible for what we do and we are also responsible for what we should do, but don't.

My behavior was top notch only because I had let go of my ego, will, and intellect enough to allow God to get the job done.

I'm glad your behaviour is "top-notch". ;) Some of us only aspire to "adequate".

Why do you think God gave you a will if He wants you to let go of it? Do you think God wants you to let go of your hands or your feet and be His puppet?

Why not try to channel your will in constructive directions instead?

The idea of letting go of your intellect is so horrifying that I'm not even going to go there.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Phat, posted 06-30-2006 11:00 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 240 of 300 (327758)
06-30-2006 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Faith
06-30-2006 6:37 AM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
Faith writes:

A sinless man is immortal.

Jesus was not immortal. He died.

Scripture makes it plain that he was sinless and did not have to die at all because he was sinless, but CHOSE to die for our sake.

He chose to become mortal for our sake. He chose neither the time nor the means of His death.

quote:
John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Laying down one's life means devoting one's life, or even risking one's life, not losing it.


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 244 of 300 (327784)
06-30-2006 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
06-30-2006 1:11 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
Faith writes:

No mortal man can choose death.

No mortal man needs to "choose" death. It's a given.

God chose life, in the form of Jesus. Death was the inescapable conclusion.

Wonderful how you know stuff about Jesus that is the negation of what scripture says about Him.

As I said, nonsensical conclusions (such as yours) are not what scripture "says". If you're so confident of what scripture says, why do you run away from discussions of scripture?

Laying down one's life means devoting one's life, or even risking one's life, not losing it.

The latest version of Newspeak perhaps?

Soldiers lay down their lives when they knowingly (and more-or-less voluntarily) put themselves in harm's way. The sacrifice is in what they do, not in their death. Death is an unfortunate byproduct.

quote:
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
- Attributed to General George S. Patton Jr.

Death is an inevitable - and usually unplanned - part of life. It is not an accomplishment.


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 Message 245 by Faith, posted 06-30-2006 2:19 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 246 of 300 (327801)
06-30-2006 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Faith
06-30-2006 2:19 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
Faith writes:

As I've said over and over, death is impossible for a sinless man....

Any yet Jesus did die. His death was eminently possible, your misrepresentation of scripture notwithstanding.

He says in scripture that he chose death, that no man had that power over him otherwise.

If no man had the power of death over Him, He was not a man.

When He said that He "chose death" he was saying that He chose the life of a normal man - including the inevitability of death.

If you're so confident of what scripture says, why do you run away from discussions of scripture?

Odd thing to say when I'm the only one here who has quoted scripture....

It is not my place to usurp jar's thread, and there is nowhere near enough space left to discuss the side issues fully. I have explained briefly why your interpretation is wrong and I have invited you to discuss the relevant scriptures - or any other scriptures - in an appropriate thread.

Soldiers lay down their lives when they knowingly (and more-or-less voluntarily) put themselves in harm's way. The sacrifice is in what they do, not in their death. Death is an unfortunate byproduct.

That is false. It is not how the term is used. It is used of someone who gave his life as a soldier, that is, died, not just put himself in harm's way.

If "laying down one's life" meant only death, then a suicide would be on the same plane with a soldier's death. On the contrary, "laying down one's life" means risking one's life for a reason. The risk of one's life is more important than the loss of one's life.

It is interesting that you have ignored all the scripture I have quoted to demonstrate that it is not true for Jesus.

I have not ignored anything - I have explained that if your notion of Jesus is correct, then He was not a real man at all and the gospel is irrelevant.

I will gladly discuss it with you at length in the appropriate venue.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 251 of 300 (327834)
06-30-2006 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by MangyTiger
06-30-2006 4:11 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
MangyTiger writes:

Can you give me some examples of it being used about somebody who risked their life but didn't die - either in literature or political/rememberance speeches or newspapers etc.?

There's a similar phrase that we apply to police officers, firefighters, etc.: "laying their lives on the line". Do you think that refers only to the ones who die? I'd say it refers to all of them who risk their lives for our sake.

What we have here is a question of English usage. You and Faith are trying to project today's common usage of a phrase back on Jesus, who wasn't speaking English.

For a better idea of what He meant, let's look at the context:

quote:
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Joh 10:12 But he that is a hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
Joh 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Does a shepherd die for his sheep or does he risk his life to protect his sheep? What use to the sheep would a dead shepherd be? Who would protect them from the next danger?

It seems clear from His own words that Jesus was not talking about His actual death, but the potential for death. And it also seems clear from His own words that His death would be a detriment to the sheep, not a benefit.

Let's look at another usage of "laying down one's life" in the New Testament:

quote:
1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because He laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

We ought to lay down our lives for our brethren as Jesus laid down his life for us. Sounds more like dedicating our lives, doesn't it?

Look at the next verse:

quote:
1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

It's pretty clear that "laying down our lives for our brethren" refers to what we can do in life, not in death.

Edited by Ringo, : Capitalization

Edited by Ringo, : Spelling

Edited by Ringo, : Capitalization. Ah, the joys of obsessive compulsion.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by MangyTiger, posted 06-30-2006 4:11 PM MangyTiger has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by MangyTiger, posted 06-30-2006 5:44 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 255 of 300 (327862)
06-30-2006 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by MangyTiger
06-30-2006 5:44 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
mangyTiger writes:

In your interpretation of Jesus laying his life down what does taking it again mean?

Remember that Jesus was speaking in the context of a shepherd - in a parable, as it were. He lays His life on the line - or lays it down - on a regular basis. But a shepherd dying for his sheep makes no sense - they would be at the mercy of the wolves.

The laying down of His life is not the business He is in - He is in the business of raising sheep and His life is entangled with the lives of His sheep. When the danger has passed, they all have to take up their lives where they left off. When the drama is over, they go back to the daily grind.

It seems to me that He was emphasizing the daily life as opposed to the threat of death. Laying down His life for His sheep also means sacrificing His own comfort to improve the lives of His sheep.

The passage in 1 John seems to confirm that "laying down one's life" means giving what we can in life, not in death.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 269 of 300 (328050)
07-01-2006 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Phat
07-01-2006 3:15 PM


Re: Whoever?
Phat writes:

whats with the "whoever believes" part?

Believing in somebody is not just believing that they exist, or even that they are who they say they are. If it was, then the vast majority of human beings who ever lived would be doomed - they didn't believe that Jesus was the Son of God.

Believing in Jesus means believing in the message that He brought, believing that "loving thy neighbour as thyself" is what God wants us to do.

Professing a belief in Jesus without doing what He told us to do is empty faith.

quote:
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


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