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Author Topic:   Belief Statement - jar
GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 6 of 300 (323099)
06-19-2006 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by AdminAsgara
06-18-2006 12:13 PM


I VERY much enjoyed reading your story jar. Some people seem to have a "road to Damascus" experience and for others like us find the LOrd through a search for truth.

I have a question for yoy.

jar writes:

GOD chose ALL people.

We will be judged based on our own behavior.

Can you expand on that? How do you believe God deals with someone from a loving Godly home as compared to someone with FAS and who is abused as a child.

How does God arbitrate the cut off point. Is it done on a points basis? I'm not trying to be glib but the whole idea of our being judged as in a court of law doesn't seem right to me.

You mentioned studying Lewis in your post. His contention is that we choose heaven or hell. Can you comment on where you agree or differ with Lewis on this point?

Thanks again!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by AdminAsgara, posted 06-18-2006 12:13 PM AdminAsgara has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 06-19-2006 10:03 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 10 of 300 (323218)
06-19-2006 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
06-19-2006 10:03 AM


jar writes:

Why? I don't understand the difficulty some folk have with the idea of being judged. What else could there be? And who better to understand whether or not we tried to do what is right and to not do what is wrong than GOD? I doubt it will be a court of LAW but rather of Justice.

I don't have a problem with being judged as such. The problem for me is that when we think of being judged it is the idea that if we commit one or more crimes, a penalty is imposed. I don't believe that God is so much concerned with balancing off the sins that we have commited against the benevolent acts that we have performed. I believe that in the end God is concerned about who, what and how we love. Do we truly love Him, (by loving goodness and hating evil), do we truly love our neighbour, or are we in love with ourselves above all else?

jar writes:

I think we choose to make life pretty much what it is, heaven or hell, both while living, and for the future. In the Last Battle there is an interesting exchange between Aslan and one of the Calormene soldiers. He had worked all his life to support Tash, and so is understandably expecting not to pass through the door. It is one of the more profound parts of the series but on the off chance you have not yet visited Narnia, I will not spoil it for you.

It is largely because of that part of the book that "The Last Battle" is my favourite of the Narnia series. I assume that you have read "The Great Divorce". The whole book is a metaphor of how people cannot let go of the issues that seemed important to them and thus chose hell and those that gave up the things of the self and relinquished them to God and chose heaven.

jar writes:

I don't think I went searching or ever found GOD. There was never a time when GOD was not already present, already with me. Just as you grow older you gain additional insight into your parents, your friends and yourself, I have over time learned more about GOD. I changed, GOD did not.

I agree. I would add however that it is not so much, IMHO, about finding God, but about recognizing God in us and giving our life to Him. The thing about becoming Christian then is that when we do give our lives to Him; He will give us the desires of our heart. That of course doesn't mean that you will get that 42 foot yacht you always wanted but it means that that he will help you to desire the things that build up your spirit.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 06-19-2006 10:03 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 06-19-2006 11:16 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 12 of 300 (323246)
06-19-2006 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
06-19-2006 11:16 AM


Re: Reading from the BCP
jar writes:

I take that charge seriously. But I also don't believe that being a Christian, or not a Christian, really has much to do with anything. I don't think GOD worries much about whether or not we love or even know him, but rather what we do. If we do really try to do what is right, and do really try not to do what is wrong, if we really regret those things we do do wrong, and try to do better in the future, I doubt that She much cares whether it is done For GOD, or just because it is the right thing to do.

I agree completely with your feelings on the "General Confession". We seem to be disagreeing when in large we are in agreement. I guess I just want to get away from the idea that God, with a heavenly scale balances off the good deeds on one side against the bad deeds on the other.

The Bible writes, (paraphrasing here), that to whom much is given much is expected. I think it is safe to assume that the converse would be true as well. That being the case then God wouldn't be using the same criteria for everyone, which goes back to the person I asked you about who grew up with FAS and who suffered with childhood abuse. My belief is that God is concerned about the condition of my heart and not my doctirne. However doctrine, for better or for worse, will effect the condition of my heart.

When I spoke about being Christian in my last post I was not saying that only Christians go to heaven. I was only saying that when we do turn our lives over to Him, He does give us a fresh start and He does help us to desire more Christ like attributes.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 06-19-2006 11:16 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 06-19-2006 2:21 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 14 of 300 (323317)
06-19-2006 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
06-19-2006 2:21 PM


Re: Reading from the BCP
I agree but as to where most Christians wind up I'm not prepared to say, but of course that brings up the unanswerable argument of who is a real Christian.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 06-19-2006 2:21 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 73 of 300 (324152)
06-20-2006 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Brian
06-20-2006 4:42 PM


Valid christian teaching?
Brian writes:

What he did say is that following a faith that denies Jesus' divinity (Islam)is a valid path to salvation. Given that Jesus said the only way to the Father is through Jesus Himself, I cannot see how following Islam can be compatible with a very basic Christian teaching.

I suppose one can interpret parts of the Bible to support the view that only Christians have salvation, but taken in context I think that the Bible is fairly clear that it isn't those who hear the word, but those who do the will of the father that are considered righteous.

Just read through Matthew 25, (the sheep and the goats). It doesn't talk about doctrine. The sheep, are those who feed the hungry, house the homeless etc. Read through Romans 2. Jesus is concerned about the condition of or heart and not our doctrine. I will agree however that through prayer to Jesus our hearts are changed if we are truly open to him.

I think that jar might go further than I would in this area but I am in complete agreement with him that Jesus saves more than just Christians, and I'm also not convinced that all those who call themselves Christians have salvation.

Edited by GDR, : Edited to make the correction pointed out by jar


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 4:42 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 11:42 PM GDR has responded
 Message 81 by Brian, posted 06-21-2006 5:55 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 75 of 300 (324169)
06-21-2006 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by jar
06-20-2006 11:42 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
Thanks for the correction. Another quote is From Matthew 7.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

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 Message 74 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 11:42 PM jar has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 90 of 300 (324322)
06-21-2006 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Brian
06-21-2006 5:26 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
Brian writes:

But, the Bible is quite explicit about who will be saved

Jesus claims I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me

I don't see where He says, no one comes to the Father except through me and Allah, Buddha, Brahma, and uncle Tom Cobbly and all.

If that isn't explicit enough then the Book of Acts 4:12 claims And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

How obvious does it have to be.

Is it a case of ignoring the bits of the Bible that contradict a particular position?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Whoever believes in Jesus, not for those who specifically deny Him.

Hi Brian

First off thanks for the "Uncle Tom Cobbly and All". My grandfather use to sing that to me over half a century ago and I haven't thought of it in years.

All of the quotes that you give from the Bible tell us just who it is that does the saving. It doesn't exclude others although I agree you can come up with verses that sound more exclusive. However the Bible has to be read in context.

Jar talked about this earlier. CS Lewis in the book "The Last Battle" from the Narnia series relates how a soldier in the army of Tash, who had fought against the allegorical Christ, (Aslan) found himself in an allegorical heaven.

CS Lewis is probably the greatest Christian apologist of the last or any century. His thinking certainly has to be considered mainstream.

CS Lewis in "The Last Battle" writes:

So I went over much grass and many flowers and among all kinds of wholesome and delectable tree till lo! In a narrow place between two rocks there came to meet me a great Lion. The speed of him was like an ostrich, and his size was an elephant’s; his hair was like pure gold that is liquid in the furnace. He was more terrible than the Flaming Mountain of Langour, and in beauty he surpassed all that is in the world even as the rose in bloom surpasses the dust of the desert.

Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him.

But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son thou art welcome. But I said, Alas< Lord< I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me.

Then by reason of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites., I take to me the services which thou hastt done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted.

Dost thou understand , Child? I said, Lord, thou knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

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 Message 79 by Brian, posted 06-21-2006 5:26 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2006 10:44 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 159 by Brian, posted 06-27-2006 12:43 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 93 of 300 (324335)
06-21-2006 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Brian
06-21-2006 5:55 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
Brian writes:

I am very familiar with the sheep and the goats teaching, it is a basic Sunday School lesson. I am also aware that the sheep and the goats story actually supports my view and undermines your claim.
Matthew 25 is going about FOLLOWERS of Jesus, not about followers of another faith. It is about people who profess to be a follower of Jesus but do not follow His teachings, which sounds familiar doesn’t it?

Sorry Brian but you are wrong.

Matthew 25 writes:

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

He talks about ALL the nations and he is choosing those who actually do the will of the father. What's the Father's will? To love God and to love your neighbour. To love God is to love all that is good and hate evil. Loving your neighbour is about loving others as you would have them love you.

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Brian, posted 06-21-2006 5:55 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Brian, posted 06-21-2006 11:15 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 99 of 300 (324393)
06-21-2006 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Brian
06-21-2006 11:15 AM


Re: Professing Christians in all Nations
Brian writes:

I think you need to read in context, it makes no sense to take this verse as relating to everyone in a nation. it is referring to those who have heard the gospel in those nations.

I disagree completely. He is talking all of mankind and that is taking it in context. You quoted John 3:16 earlier. When the Bible is taken in complete context I contend that when it says "that whosever believes in him shall not perish", it is saying that it is saying that "whosoever believes in what he stands for which is love, truth, charity, etc. As I said earlier it is about loving goodness and hating evil.

Brian writes:

Think about it.

A wee aboriginal guy is up in front of Jesus, Jesus says to him that he didn't follow the gospel, the guy will reply that he has no idea what Jesus is talking about.

The sheep and the goats is a story about xians who profess to be xians but do not act as Jesus wanted them to. It makes no sense for the gathering to be anytihng other than those who heard the Word of Christ.

Think about Buddhist monks, say the Theravada tradition, who were fed and clothed by villagers, the monks didn't feed or clothe anyone, their entire time was spent preparing for enlightenment. How can they be saved?

Here is quote written by Paul from the book of Romans

Romans 2 writes:

5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

I'll repeat this for emphasis.

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."

God has given all of us the ability to choose Him or to choose self. Becoming a Christian is a matter of faith, and my faith and my experience tells me by accepting Christ as Lord I have made a spiritual connection with Christ so that my awareness of the person that He wants me to be is made more acute.

This does not make me more righteous in the eyes of God that someone of another or no faith but it does make more righteous than I would have been without taking that step in faith.

I'm gone for the rest of the day as well. I'm off to visit "The Excited States of America", and some grandsons down there. Fun day. :)


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

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 Message 95 by Brian, posted 06-21-2006 11:15 AM Brian has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 104 of 300 (325988)
06-25-2006 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by jar
06-25-2006 12:26 AM


How much love?
jar writes:

Remember that it is a two part command, love others as you love yourself. The first part is that you need to love your self. The second it to love others as you love your self.

I know it says that, but I think this quote is more consistent with Christ's teachings on love, taken in the context of the whole NT.

John 13:34 writes:

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

If we are to love others as Christ loved us we have to remember that Christ died for us. Christ put everyone else ahead of himself.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 12:26 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 9:59 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 111 of 300 (326287)
06-26-2006 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by jar
06-25-2006 9:59 AM


How much love?
jar writes:

When seen in that context I believe that your quote from John fits in with my interpretation, that we should emulate Jesus life, try to treat others as he would have treated them.

I agree with this atatement but this isn't the same as loving others as we love ourselves which you quoted earlier.

jar writes:

This also ties in with the messages from Mark and Matthew, that what we will be judged on is what we do, how we behave towards and around others.

It isn't what we do, IMHO, it is the condition of our heart. The Bible tells the story who gave all that she had, which was a couple of coins. Warren Buffet just gave 37 billion, I think it was, to charity. Does this make Buffet billions of times more righteous than the woman in the parable?

Compare someone who gives to charity because in their heart they desire the recognition of their peers, to someone else in the same financial circumstances who anonymously gives the same amount.

Compare someone who grows us in an abusive home with someone who grows up in a safe loving environment. If they love their neighbour equally are they judged equally?

I am repeating myself but I don't believe that we are judged by having the good things on one side of the scales and the bad on the other.

We are judged, as I said, on the condition of our heart with much being expected of those who have been given much.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 9:59 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 10:09 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 113 of 300 (326478)
06-26-2006 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by jar
06-26-2006 10:09 AM


Re: How much love?
If we were sitiing down talking I don't think we're in disagreement. I just have a problem with the term judging as it sounds like a court of law where we argue the merits of the good and bad.

I'm inclined to go along with what Lewis writes on the subject which if I can paraphrase what I think he is saying is just that in the end we choose God's will for our lives or He will allow us to choose our will for our life.

As I said earlier,we say to God thy will be done or He says to us thy will be done. Another way it might be put is this. At the end of our physical life do we have a heart of love for others or is our heart full of love for ourselves.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 10:09 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 1:40 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 115 of 300 (326496)
06-26-2006 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by jar
06-26-2006 1:40 PM


Re: How much love?
jar writes:

At Judgement I think each individual will be judged based on how well he or she tried to carry out that will. I think that the Judgement will be individual, that you will be judged based on what you did, what you did not do and what you were capable of doing.

I'll be out until tonight, so won't be responding back for a while but I'm wondering if you have read Lewis's "The Great Divorce". My personal thinking is along those lines.


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 Message 114 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 1:40 PM jar has responded

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GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 161 of 300 (326840)
06-27-2006 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Brian
06-27-2006 12:43 PM


Valid christian teaching?
Brian writes:

For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Belief in the Son is paramount here, it doesn’t say belief in the son or in Allah or in Buddha or in Brahma. How can this verse be taken any other way? I am genuinely interested.

I know that I posted this quote from the Bible earlier but I want to repeat it in the same post with John 3:16 to try and answer your question to the best of my understanding.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

I realize that John 3:16 is thrown around extensively by some evangelical Christians, (I do consider myself an evangelical Christian), but I am convinced that a belief in the son of God is not the same as believing that the sky is blue.

When I say I believe in someone as a political leader for example I am not saying that I believe that he exists or that I believe something about his/her lineage. I am saying that I believe in what he stands for and espouses.

I therefore contend that someone who truly loves joy and hates evil, loves joy in his fellow creatures and hates to see others in sorrow, and is prepared to sacrifice the self for the benefit of others believes in Jesus even though they may not know Him by name.

Brian writes:

Sorry, I find Lewis excruciatingly boring.

I would imagine that if I had come to the conclusion that the Christian message was false I would find Lewis boring as well. As it is however I find him to be fascinating.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Brian, posted 06-27-2006 12:43 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Brian, posted 06-27-2006 1:59 PM GDR has responded
 Message 211 by lfen, posted 06-29-2006 4:42 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 163 of 300 (326872)
06-27-2006 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Brian
06-27-2006 1:59 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
Brian writes:

Do you have a problem with God condemning people to hell? Not everyone will be saved according to Christianity, so Jesus did create many people in the knowledge that He will send them to Hell some day.

If you read the exchange I had in this thread with jar you will see that I do believe in Hell. However it isn't as simple as God sitting as judge and telling the bad guys to go south and the good guys north. (Being in Canada that has a certain charm. :) )

I believe that in the end we choose between giving ourselves over to God or we choose to cling to the the things that bind us to love of self, and my guess would be the primary thing that binds us to self is pride.

Brian writes:

For example, I live certainly live a life that you describe, but I think the God of the Bible is a fictitious character whose literary nature is one of a bloodthirsty barbarian. I certainly wouldn't want salvation from that creature. So, how do I get saved?

It seems strange for a non believer to find it necessary to be a Biblical literalist. That is one of the primary reasons that I am a Christian is because I am secure in the knowledge that God is a God of love. I am fully aware that with a literal reading of the OT you can find evidence to the contrary but I personnaly look behind the literal telling of the stories and find what I believe to be a greater truth than can be found in a literal reading.

Brian writes:

All this be nicey nice to others and you are saved really begs the question of why was Jesus even born?

If Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and all other people on earth can be saved through being a nice person, then there is no point in Jesus.

I do believe that by giving our lives to Christ binds us into a relationship with him spiritually and through that connection we are nudged in the way we should go. For reasons beyond my understanding God found it necessary to suffer and die for us on the cross. There is a great deal of both the physical and the metaphysical world that are beyond my understanding. These are issues I take on faith, and also occasionally on personal experience.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

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 Message 162 by Brian, posted 06-27-2006 1:59 PM Brian has not yet responded

  
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