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Author Topic:   Belief Statement - jar
iano
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 2 of 300 (322918)
06-18-2006 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by AdminAsgara
06-18-2006 12:13 PM


Jars essay on enlightenment
Bloody heck Jar, that was a fantastic essay. Had it been more than a page then it would have been a page turner as well!

And very useful in that it provides deep background regarding the source of the position you hold- not only on God directly, but also with regard to your position on issues that would derive from ones view of God. I have at times viewed you as someone who deliberately attempts to take pot shots at faith alone adherents simply for the fun of it. That view must now be modified - you must, to your mind, be opposing what you see as heretical teaching as energetically as I oppose what I see as your heretical teaching. Your motivation is not as I thought it to be. Also, my charge that you are not a Christian must have been hurtful to one who genuninely considers himself to be such - and whilst I stand by that statement (for the definition of a Christian as I understand it differs from yours), I fully recognise that you would not see it that way. Nor should you be expected to. I apologise for hurt caused if it was experienced.

Great essay I say again.

I note one thing which runs throughout the whole and it seems to me to be the crux of the difference between us. In your whole essay there isn't one mention of anything which would lead me to conclude that there was any direct relationship between you and God. God is remote and every idea you have about him appears to be the result of the various influences that others and nature have had on you during the course of your life. The model you have of God (for that is what is comes across as) in an intellectually-derived one - for all the chiselling that resulted in the model taking the shape it does, are of the intellectual variety.

Soon after the section dealing with the Confirmation (which ran a cold chill down my spine) a young Jar says to his parents:

“I know that you and GOD will help.”

You had grounds to believe your parents would help - we can see that you had a direct, personal relationship with them which would inform your knowing. But there is no equivilent mention of a personal relationship with God on which you could base your knowing He would help. Your knowledge at that point and thereafter appears to be based purely on the belief that what you have been taught by others ("God will help you") or have intellectually rationalised for yourself, is true.

A god in your own (variously influenced) image and likeness it would seem. And barring direct, personal experience of Him, the only one possible for any man.

Ian
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ps: AdminAsgara, I wouldn't mind trying my hand at this format. How do I go about it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by AdminAsgara, posted 06-18-2006 12:13 PM AdminAsgara has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 06-18-2006 2:46 PM iano has responded
 Message 5 by AdminAsgara, posted 06-18-2006 4:25 PM iano has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


(1)
Message 4 of 300 (322927)
06-18-2006 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
06-18-2006 2:46 PM


Re: Jars essay on enlightenment
Fair enough. It was just that a personal relationship with God (as opposed to Religion) isn't ever mentioned in the essay and it is left to the reader to assume such a thing exists for you.

Still a great essay though.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 06-18-2006 2:46 PM jar has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 22 of 300 (323808)
06-20-2006 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
06-20-2006 9:19 AM


Re: Aren't they all Christians?
According to you perhaps. According to me, no.

Go figure!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 9:19 AM jar has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 34 of 300 (323882)
06-20-2006 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Brian
06-20-2006 1:09 PM


Re: Still struggling to find something significant in any of your post.
I don’t agree. I think more people are more people would at least take your claim to be a Christian a little more seriously if you had mentioned a relationship with God, maybe you can put it in version 2?

That struck me as curious too. The soundest basis for such a belief being the very thing that is never mentioned in an essay on ones belief system. An architects drawing of a house which doesn't show the foundations?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 1:09 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 1:23 PM iano has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 54 of 300 (323995)
06-20-2006 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by jar
06-20-2006 4:53 PM


Re: Jesus Divinity
If it were possible that Jesus was a myth told around campfires, is it equally possible that love God and love you neighbour is also a myth. Why is this particularity true when/if Jesus isn't?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 4:53 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 5:07 PM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 56 of 300 (324007)
06-20-2006 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by jar
06-20-2006 5:07 PM


Re: Jesus Divinity
This presupposes that that is Gods aim. Is it possible that that is a subjective notion born out of a personal philosopy as to how best the world should work. God in your own image as it were?

How does one find out whether this actually springs from God


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 5:07 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 5:30 PM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 61 of 300 (324023)
06-20-2006 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by jar
06-20-2006 5:30 PM


Re: Jesus Divinity
The question was how do you deduce this as being true outside it being a subjective ( and thus not necessarily true) notion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 5:30 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 5:42 PM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 64 of 300 (324034)
06-20-2006 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
06-20-2006 5:42 PM


Re: Jesus Divinity
For who? You? Or those who don't think it works for them?

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 5:42 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 5:53 PM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 69 of 300 (324053)
06-20-2006 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by jar
06-20-2006 5:53 PM


Re: Jesus Divinity
"it works". It works for who? You? Presumably the answer here is yes.

But presumably it cannot work for people who find that such a notion doesn't at all work for them.

Doesn't that make this truth subjective?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 5:53 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 6:12 PM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 71 of 300 (324062)
06-20-2006 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by jar
06-20-2006 6:12 PM


Re: Jesus Divinity
Love GOD and love others as you love yourself is true regardless of the source.

I asked you how you decided this was true in a non-subjective sense.

You said:

It works

Could you describe

a) what it is about the statement which makes it work.

b) how something working makes it true? My lightswitch works - does that make it true?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 6:12 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 6:30 PM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 80 of 300 (324205)
06-21-2006 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by jar
06-20-2006 6:30 PM


Re: Jesus Divinity
a) what it is about the statement which makes it work.

When you try to treat others as you would like to be treated, everybody wins.

That is a subjective opinion surely, not something about which one could say "it is true". True for you perhaps?

b) how something working makes it true? My lightswitch works - does that make it true?

ROTFLMAO. It makes it work. Who cares if it is TRUE. That may well be the dumbest question I have EVER seen asked.

I was attempting to point out your weak use of English to you (in this case - your English in the OP was excellent). The statement in which you say is true is incomplete and cannot even claim to be true as it is:

Love GOD and love others as you love yourself is true regardless of the source

Had you said "love God and love others means everyone wins is true - regardless of the source" then there wouldn't be a problem in the sentences structure (aside from whether it is an accurate statement or not)

Your being very evasive Jar. You've put up a statement of belief yet when asked about aspects of it you engage in weaving around with partial statements which don't hold together in themselves and which, when followed up, result in more weaving and attempts at ridicule. Did you not foresee that aspects of your statement would be examined and if so why evade that examination. What was the point?

You could have said you believe "Love God/others" to be true because it works (subjective, for you personally) but when you say it actually is true (objeectively, for all) you must expect to justify that statement with clear reasoning. That reasoning so far?

"It works"

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 6:30 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 06-21-2006 9:53 AM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 87 of 300 (324301)
06-21-2006 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by jar
06-21-2006 9:53 AM


Re: Jesus Divinity
You can say that in your opinion something is true. That's fine by me.

Subjectively, its not true that Jesus existed and subjectively true that Love God/others works for you. This is fine too


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 06-21-2006 9:53 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by jar, posted 06-21-2006 10:10 AM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 89 of 300 (324316)
06-21-2006 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by jar
06-21-2006 10:10 AM


Re: Jesus Divinity
Leave the 'what' question unanswered. It doesn't matter now. You are saying clearly above that, what it was I enquiring after:

Jesus never existed as God incarnate in your opinion. That is not, in your opinion true. You look at the evidence and conclude "No" - a mere sheep herder myth

You look at "Love God/love your neighbour" and conlude "true' in your opinion. True because it works for you - no matter who wrote the words.

Is that a correct summation so far?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by jar, posted 06-21-2006 10:10 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by jar, posted 06-21-2006 10:53 AM iano has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 121 of 300 (326529)
06-26-2006 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by nator
06-26-2006 4:52 PM


Re: Jesus Divinity
Iano, in particular, seems to consider himself quite wretched.

Compare:

Paul in Romans:

"Oh wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death"

Iano in EvC

"Oh wretched man that I was, who has delivered me from this body of death"

Don't let a mans struggle with sin fool you into missing the big picture. Life is rich when there are struggles to face. Not fun at times, granted. But rich.

Edited by iano, : saved to deliver


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by nator, posted 06-26-2006 4:52 PM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by robinrohan, posted 06-26-2006 5:12 PM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 136 of 300 (326566)
06-26-2006 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by robinrohan
06-26-2006 5:12 PM


Re: Jesus Divinity
Its not so much that Iano loves or does not love his sorry self its more that iano's love for himself is defined by what it is that constitutes healthy self-love. And healthy self-love must be defined by an other in order to be sure it is healthy. For who can safely define self-love for themselves?

My problem is in loving all those others. Many of them are not very lovable, for one thing,

Not by your standard or mine, I agree. If someone comes along though, and shows you just how loveable you are and you find that nigh-on impossible to accept (for you know of your own unlovable-ness - in detail) then it becomes easier. Not simple but easier.

for another thing, I only have so much love in me too pass around. I have to be frugal.

Frugal is someone running on a tank that cannot be internally replenished - like, whoever heard of a tank that is internally replenished. Sure, I can be tight with my love at times. But then he fills the tank again and I'm free to press on the gas again. Externally replenished tanks can run forever


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by robinrohan, posted 06-26-2006 5:12 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by robinrohan, posted 06-26-2006 6:05 PM iano has responded

  
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