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Author Topic:   Belief Statement - jar
Brian
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 19 of 300 (323704)
06-20-2006 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
06-18-2006 2:46 PM


Re: Jars essay on enlightenment
GOD, like the rest of my family was simply always there.

What age were you when mum and dad told you that Santa wasn't real, or that the tooth fairy didn't exist?

Is there the possiblity that you had been conditioned into believing in God?

Saying that God was always there, like a part of the family, could mean you were (accidently) subjected to a kind of 'brain washing'. Is this a possibility, and if not why not?

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 06-18-2006 2:46 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 9:16 AM Brian has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 23 of 300 (323815)
06-20-2006 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
06-20-2006 9:16 AM


Agnostic Xian?
Certainly that is a possibility.

So, in reality, you are an agnostic Xian?

Brian.

PS, You did know there's no Santa or tooth fairy didn't you, I'd hate for you to have found out this way. :p


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 9:16 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 10:19 AM Brian has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 25 of 300 (323819)
06-20-2006 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
06-20-2006 10:19 AM


Re: Agnostic Xian?
But that isn't Santa, that is 'Santa'.

Anyway, back on topic.

As an agnostic Xian, why do you feel that the God of the OT is the one true God when you openly admit that the OT is essentially a book of propaganda, 'fairy tales', legends, and scientific and historical impossibilities.

Wouldn't the logical approach be that since the OT is basically a collection of unreliable texts, then why should the Israelites be any more accurate about their God than they are about their history?

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 10:19 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 10:38 AM Brian has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 27 of 300 (323825)
06-20-2006 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
06-20-2006 10:38 AM


Re: Agnostic Xian?
What makes you think that is what I believve?

Well the Bible part is at least true, you say it almost daily here.

I believe that there is GOD. One true GOD.

But this God is Jesus Christ though, therefore my assumption in the last post must be correct.

Religion, whether Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or Taoism or Wicca or Satanism or Hinduism or any other form is but a human centric search for that GOD.

Why does Buddhism teach that there isn't a God then? Seems a strange way to make yourself noticed. Same with Taoism, there is no God there either.

But, this is smoke and mirrors, you specifically state that you are a Xian, which teaches that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, this is incompatible with the teachings of Islam, are you sure that it is accurate to describe yourself as a Xian?
Why not identify yourself as a Buddhist (ignoring the teaching about an eternal being of course) or a Muslim?

Christianity is no more GOD

But, Christianity is based on a relationship with a personal God, a God that you believe in your heart conquered death so that you can have eternal life. It is based on a God of revelation.

They are but tools used by man to try to understand something that is beyond human comprehension.

But, you are basing your beliefs exclusively on these 'maps', since you havent had a personal experience of God.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 10:38 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 11:11 AM Brian has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 29 of 300 (323850)
06-20-2006 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
06-20-2006 11:11 AM


Re: Agnostic Xian?
I'm not sure that this will answer your questions, or that I can answer them to your satisfaction but I will try.

I’m more confused.

My beliefs really are just My Beliefs. They are personal, individual and intimate.

The problem is, you are applying an already defined faith to your personal faith that does not resemble the description of that faith.

Yes, I believe that Jesus Christ is GOD and that He came down as a human, a man, to be a teacher. But that does not make other religions wrong.

Yes it does.

Islam rejects Jesus, although He is accepted as a very important prophet, it is absurd to a Muslim to say that God had a son.

It also means that Buddhism is wrong, a faith that teaches that nothing is eternal, that everything is in a state of constant flux, that there is no such thing as a ‘soul’ is incompatible with Christianity.

I try not to limit GOD.

But, when you describe yourself as a Christian you limit YOUR beliefs.

I see no reason to limit either how GOD can reach out to people or how people can reach out to GOD.

So, 2500 years of Buddhist teaching is basically a sham? Why would the major Buddhist teachers, who, under their law of karma, would keep themselves within samsara by deliberately mislead their followers?

Why would Siddartha Gautama, who was brought up believing in the God of Hinduism, reject that God and preach that there are no eternal beings, if he was already following the truth?

You specifically mention Islam and the fact that they do not recognize Jesus as being GOD as though that were some great point.

Well, I would reckon that you say Jesus is God incarnate, they say Jesus is not God incarnate is quite an obstacle to overcome in the harmony stakes.

Frankly, I don't see the import.

I’m sure a Muslim or Christian would see the import though.

I disagree with them, but that does not make me right or them wrong.

It makes you unconvinced about Christianity though, it means you aren’t sure if Jesus is God at all, and thus it makes the term ‘Christian’ difficult to apply to you, IMO.

Neither of us knows, both of us believe.

I have yet to meet a Muslim, and I have met a great many, who would agree with you. EVERY Muslim I have met is convinced beyond all doubt that their faith is true, and wouldn’t even entertain the possibility that there is no Allah, and that the Qur’an is mistaken on so many points.

Maybe I have just met different Muslims from you.

Certainly it is accurate to describe myself as a Christian. I believe that Jesus Christ is GOD incarnate. What is your point?

The point is you are essentially saying that Jesus is misleading a great many people. You imply that not everything Jesus said was true. For example, when Jesus said: ”no one comes to the Father, except through me” he essentially lied, because if your particular flavour of Xianity is true, there’s more than one way to the Father, so Jesus lied. And this isn’t just on this occasion; it means there are many other occasions where Jesus lied, or deliberately mislead people.

Does that mean I am right and they are wrong? I don't think so. If I was a Buddhist I would be expressing the tenets of the Buddhists.

If you were a Christian, you’d be expressing the tenets of Christianity, but what you are expressing in no way resembles any extant denomination of Christianity.

Brian writes:

But, you are basing your beliefs exclusively on these 'maps', since you havent had a personal experience of God.

JAR = And what makes you think I have not?

Well, what would arguably be the most important event in a Christian’s life would, IMO, at least be included in that Christian’s statement of belief, perhaps I missed it in your essay but I don’t see any personal experience of God in it.

What else convinces me you haven't met God is that you are not convinced that Jesus is God.

People who have went through a personal religious experience, and again I have met many, do not have your doubts.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 11:11 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 12:35 PM Brian has responded
 Message 31 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 12:38 PM Brian has responded
 Message 110 by berberry, posted 06-25-2006 2:54 PM Brian has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 32 of 300 (323874)
06-20-2006 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jazzns
06-20-2006 12:35 PM


Re: Agnostic Xian?
Where did Jar express doubt about God?

When he said: "Neither of us knows, both of us believe."

I am not picking a fight, I am sking for clarification.

Are you the arbitar of what can be considered a valid belief system?

Not at all.

But, the definitions of these faiths are incompatible.

Jar may well be a Xian, but his flavour of Christianity is incompatible with all known definitions.

Perhaps Jar's definition is correct and every other 1500 plus denominations of Xianity are mistaken.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 12:35 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 1:38 PM Brian has responded
 Message 100 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 06-25-2006 12:13 AM Brian has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


(1)
Message 33 of 300 (323877)
06-20-2006 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
06-20-2006 12:38 PM


Re: Still struggling to find something significant in any of your post.
Brian, I really don't understand what your point is.

I thought all my points were pretty clear.

Do I think Islam is Christianity? Well, no, they are different religions.

And their core teachings are incompatible, one faith denies the possibility that the other is true.

Are the core beliefs of the different religions significantly exclusive? Sure, they are different religions.

Yes, they are different religions that you are effectively mutilating.

Do I question my beliefs? Sure.

Again, I need to question if you have met God.

Is it possible I'm wrong? Certainly.
What is your point?

The point is, someone who is truly convinced that they are a Christian or a Muslim would not entertain the possibility that they are wrong.

Well, guess what? It is personal. It is between me and GOD, would convince no one else, and so has no point beyond its personal significance to me. It was not one event but a continuing, constant, on going relationship.

I don’t agree. I think more people are more people would at least take your claim to be a Christian a little more seriously if you had mentioned a relationship with God, maybe you can put it in version 2?

Sure. I am a Christian. So that does define those beliefs. But they are defined for me. Others may and should hold different beliefs. It is personal.

In a denomination with a membership of one?

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 12:38 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 1:16 PM Brian has responded
 Message 36 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 1:22 PM Brian has responded
 Message 40 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 1:40 PM Brian has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 37 of 300 (323890)
06-20-2006 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by iano
06-20-2006 1:16 PM


Re: Still struggling to find something significant in any of your post.
Indeed.

I have a friend who is now in America who is a born again Christian, and he certainly goes on about his experience of God and how everything became so clear to him after this experience. I couldn't imagine John even for a nanosecond thinking that he could be wrong.

I am also confused as to why, if Judaism is as valid a way to God as Christianity, would Jesus preach to a Jewish audience to inform them that their only way to salvation is through Him?

Sounds very weird to me.

I also wonder why such a great man such as Buddha Gautama, whose main principle was compassion for all beings, would lead many people away from a theistic religion into an atheistic faith.

People are free to believe what they want, but borrowing a term that doesn't fit their beliefs is a bit strange.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 1:16 PM iano has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 38 of 300 (323894)
06-20-2006 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
06-20-2006 1:22 PM


Re: Still struggling to find something significant in any of your post.
Well, most of your post seems just to be rant so I'm going to ignore those and address what I can understand.

:laugh:

No rant at all, if you find the questions beyond your intellectual capacity, then I am sorry I can't break them down anymore.

But, the questions you avoid answering certainly speak volumes.

Thanks anyway.

Bye.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 1:22 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


(1)
Message 41 of 300 (323912)
06-20-2006 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jazzns
06-20-2006 1:38 PM


Re: Christianity is....?
How is that automatically an affirmation of doubt?

Because he doesn;t know if it is true!

If you read the whole conversation, he also answers my question: "Saying that God was always there, like a part of the family, could mean you were (accidently) subjected to a kind of 'brain washing'. Is this a possibility, and if not why not? "

He replies:

Certainly that is a possibility.

So, a possibility is a doubt isn't it?

All denoms of xianity may disagree to a certain extent, but which branch of Christianity promotes Islam, Buddhism, Hindusim, Taoism, and Hinduism as valid paths to God?

Part of the problem is not that Jar's flavour of Christianity is wrong, and I haven't said he isn't a Xian, the problem is the harmonising of what his flavour of Christianity dictates that other faiths preach.

For example, the belief that Jesus is God is incompatible with Islam, Jar said it isn't simply because he said so.

It is an abomination to a Muslim to say Allah had a son who came to earth. But, Jar's Chrstianity has no problem with this.

So, IMO, Jar's christianity is making a mockery of all known faiths. it is promoting that great religious leaders have deliberately mislead their followers. It also promotes the teachings of Jesus as being lies, the earlier example being the way to God.

If Jar is happy calling himself a Xian that's up to him, I'm not saying he isn't.

But I am entitled to have my doubts.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 1:38 PM Jazzns has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 42 of 300 (323913)
06-20-2006 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Jazzns
06-20-2006 1:40 PM


Re: Christianity is .....a denomination?
To be a Christian you MUST be a member of a denomination?

Do you know what a question mark means?

I asked him a question, I didn't make a statement.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 1:40 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 2:09 PM Brian has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 45 of 300 (323932)
06-20-2006 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Jazzns
06-20-2006 2:09 PM


Re: Christianity is .....a denomination?
The question was to enquire as to how many other's share Jar's beliefs. For all I know it may be a recognised branch of Christianity that I haven't heard of.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 2:09 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 3:35 PM Brian has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 46 of 300 (323938)
06-20-2006 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jazzns
06-20-2006 1:38 PM


Valid christian teaching?
Quick question Jazz.

Do you know of any branches of Christianity that promote a faith that denies Jesus' divinity as a valid path to God?

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 1:38 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by sidelined, posted 06-20-2006 3:03 PM Brian has responded
 Message 50 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 3:57 PM Brian has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 48 of 300 (323952)
06-20-2006 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by sidelined
06-20-2006 3:03 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
Nah, a single person is a heretic ;)

Edited by Brian, : spelling


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by sidelined, posted 06-20-2006 3:03 PM sidelined has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 51 of 300 (323985)
06-20-2006 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Jazzns
06-20-2006 3:35 PM


Re: Christianity is .....a denomination?
Merely interested if Jar knows if this is a popular belief system.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 3:35 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 6:01 PM Brian has responded

  
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