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Author Topic:   Belief Statement - jar
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 105 of 300 (326032)
06-25-2006 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by jar
06-25-2006 12:26 AM


Re: Jesus Divinity
Remember that it is a two part command, love others as you love yourself.

That is obviously not a two-part command but a command based on a given, that we all love ourselves.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 12:26 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 10:20 AM Faith has responded
 Message 120 by nator, posted 06-26-2006 4:52 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 123 of 300 (326536)
06-26-2006 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by jar
06-25-2006 10:20 AM


Re: Love others and self?
I believe that to love yourself, you first have to know that you are not born with damned stamped on your forehead, that you are not condemned ...

Seems to me it's far from love to tell yourself lies to make yourself feel better in the face of a genuine danger.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 10:20 AM jar has responded

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 Message 127 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 5:17 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 125 of 300 (326541)
06-26-2006 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by nator
06-26-2006 4:52 PM


Re: Jesus Divinity
The way everyone loves him/herself ought to be pretty obvious. We all look for comfort and try to avoid pain, we feel miserable when our egos are hurt etc. Pretty ordinary obvious stuff I would think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by nator, posted 06-26-2006 4:52 PM nator has responded

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 128 of 300 (326545)
06-26-2006 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by robinrohan
06-26-2006 5:15 PM


Re: Love others and self?
Now if you define love as "good will," it makes more sense to me. We wish ourselves well; in the same way, we should wish others well.

EXACTLY.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 129 of 300 (326547)
06-26-2006 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by jar
06-26-2006 5:17 PM


Re: Love others and self?
Why can't you get it?

I'm a realist. You've got some kind of elaborate denial of reality going on there. Going to bite you in the end. Can't see how that's loving yourself.


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 Message 127 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 5:17 PM jar has responded

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 133 of 300 (326559)
06-26-2006 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by robinrohan
06-26-2006 5:30 PM


Re: Love others and self?
(Incidentally, the rule seems to me impossible to carry out).

Good observation. Being "but flesh" it is beyond us.

But it's not impossible for Christ. Attaching ourselves to Him makes it possible to fulfill all His commands, at first by His own virtues imputed to us, and hopefully more and more in reality as we stick with Him.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 165 of 300 (327001)
06-27-2006 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Brian
06-27-2006 12:43 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
I love it. Brian has been right on target for days now arguing the truths of Biblical Christianity against Catholic Scientist and jar and GDR -- and I forget if there were any other of the liberal persuasion he's answered. Doing a terrific job, although he himself
rejects and apparently hates it all with a passion. I've been very impressed. How odd to be in the position of agreeing with Brian about anything whatever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Brian, posted 06-27-2006 12:43 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Brian, posted 06-28-2006 11:21 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 166 of 300 (327005)
06-27-2006 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Brian
06-27-2006 1:59 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

But these people still BELIEVED that they were following Christ, they just didn;t do it properly. There is no mention here that EVERYONE who is nice to others are the ones to be saved?

...All this be nicey nice to others and you are saved really begs the question of why was Jesus even born?

If Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and all other people on earth can be saved through being a nice person, then there is no point in Jesus.

Making all the right points here. Fun to read.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 173 of 300 (327149)
06-28-2006 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Brian
06-28-2006 11:21 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
I agree completely with your assessment of the liberal Christians. I continue to be astonished at my agreement with you. Please, carry on.

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 Message 180 by deerbreh, posted 06-28-2006 12:07 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 179 of 300 (327166)
06-28-2006 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by deerbreh
06-28-2006 11:58 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
It is the height of arrogance for one who isn't willing to practice a religion to tell others how they are doing it wrong. You have created a cartoon Christianity in your mind and decided no one is living up to it.

Well, here I must defend my arch-enemy Brian again. This is no cartoon. He's got it right. He's said very little in this argument that a traditionalist can't wholeheartedly "amen." He knows what the traditionalist churches preach, and there are many of us out here; it's not like he is this lone arrogant judge, he's arguing from what he knows. He knows it academically rather than from faith, but there is no doubt that he knows it.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 187 of 300 (327182)
06-28-2006 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by deerbreh
06-28-2006 12:07 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
Et tu Brute?

???


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 189 of 300 (327190)
06-28-2006 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by iano
06-28-2006 12:55 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
It must be a real head-wrecker to go around doing the prescribed good things whilst all the while remaining unknowing that one is doing the prescribed good things in order that one can be surprised that one did the prescribed good things come the day of the sheep and goats.

I don't know whether to say :eek: or :D

I guess I'll say both.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 209 of 300 (327512)
06-29-2006 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by GDR
06-29-2006 1:59 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
I read a lot, maybe even all, of C.S. Lewis when I was in the process of becoming a Christian, and seeing quotes from him now surprises me. Even then I could identify a tinge of liberalness in his writings but now that I'm a solid Calvinist Protestant he sounds extremely liberal. I can't see any other meaning to the sacrifice of the crucifixion than to pay for our sins. It's what the entire Bible is about really.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 214 of 300 (327580)
06-29-2006 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by GDR
06-29-2006 7:20 PM


Blood offering to pay for our sins
Could you give me the Biblical references that you would use to make your point that the crucifixion is about payment for sins.

quote:
Isaiah 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation* through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation* for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

1John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation* for our sins.

Hebrews 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Hebrews 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

__________________________________________________________________
*The American Heritage® Dictionary
propitiation
NOUN: 1. The act of propitiating. 2. Something that propitiates, especially a conciliatory offering to a god.
__________________________________________________________________

{Edit to add a few more scripture references:

Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

1Pe 1:18-19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:


Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : added bolding

Edited by Faith, : Improved bolding plus last three scripture verses


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by GDR, posted 06-29-2006 7:20 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 218 of 300 (327620)
06-29-2006 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by GDR
06-29-2006 9:32 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
Lewis says that Christ's death has put us right with God. The only thing that I can think of that needed to be put right was sin in our lives. That however is not the same thing as saying that Christ's death was payment for our sins.

Well, considering that His death is compared to the sacrifices throughout the Old Testament, which is the background for the Letter to the Hebrews, a comparison in which the efficacy of the blood of beasts is compared with the blood of Christ; and considering such terminology as "propitiation" and "sacrifice" and "Lamb of God" and so on, I would think that "putting us right with God" pretty clearly could only happen through a sacrifice in which sins are BORNE by the sacrifice iteself. Sure implies "payment" to me, the sacrifice in the place of the sinner.

Funny I hadn't realized how mealymouthed Lewis can be. Must have something to do with the liberal (it means Bible-compromising basically) trends in the Anglican/Episcopal church.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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