Message 226 of 300 (327671) 06-30-2006 3:21 AM

Reply to: Message 225 by ringo 06-30-2006 2:56 AM

Exactly what I said applies to His blood. The blood of the animal sacrifices was the symbol of the Real Thing, which is the blood shed by Christ for our sins.

See Message 214, particularly Hebrews 9:22: "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

Jesus' death did nothing but give us a sign? I call that outlandish extravagant waste to allow Him to die just for a sign if, as you claim, his value to us is in His life alone. Does not compute.

Yes they were that too. All that ritual just to feed the priests? You do have a knack for imagining the most extravagant waste. The priestly rituals are incredibly elaborate and the center of their work is the sacrifices for the sins of the people. You sure do have to sacrifice a lot (pun intended) to arrive at your weak scenarios.

Not what scripture says. But I understand that you feel free to make up your own scripture as so many do, since the Bible is the only thing that could possibly contradict you, and once you've disposed of that, as you also feel free to do, might as well invent your own religion, right?

Don't suppose you could quote chapter and verse on that, could you?How utterly silly. An AMAZING knack you have for reducing the sublime to the ridiculous.

So you don't mind contradicting all those apostles and Jesus Himself, whom I quoted in Message 214? Paul and John and Peter and the author of Hebrews and Jesus Himself? Well, some day maybe you'll have the opportunity to make your case in their hearing.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Message 227 of 300 (327674) 06-30-2006 4:04 AM

Reply to: Message 226 by Faith 06-30-2006 3:21 AM

You have it backwards. Jesus' blood is only symbolic in that it refers back to the blood on the doorposts that signified God's protection.

No. The purpose of Jesus' death was not to give us a sign. The sign is just a symbolism that can be read into His death.

Jesus had to die because He was a man. His death was no more a "waste" than any other man's death. As I said, the "sign" was just a symbol, not a purpose.

The sacrifices were to feed the priests. The ritual was to impress the faithful. I don't know why you find that strange. Every other "false" religion did exactly the same thing.

The rituals were elaborate and the laws were elaborate to keep the people dependent on the priests.

I've discussed this before in other threads and I don't recall you being there. If you want to get into what the scriptures really say, instead of your pet dogma, feel free to open a thread on the subject.

I don't mind contradicting your misinterpretation.

An important consideration in reading the Bible is that one's interpretation should not be nonsensical. The idea of God "paying Himself" with his Son's blood is utterly nonsensical. Therefore, it is necessary to find a better interpretation.

Message 228 of 300 (327675) 06-30-2006 4:10 AM

Reply to: Message 227 by ringo 06-30-2006 4:04 AM

But we've both had our say here.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Message 229 of 300 (327676) 06-30-2006 4:23 AM

Reply to: Message 228 by Faith 06-30-2006 4:10 AM

I don't propose a "fancy" interpretation. I propose a simple one: blood symbolizes life. Jesus gave His life to tell us that God forgives our debt. He gave up His life because all men do.

Simple.

Yes, I do. The scriptures must submit to the real world and to sensible interpretation. The map is not the territory.

The historic interpretation that brought us slavery and geocentrism? None of that for me, thanks.

No, I just try to make some sense of them. That's something the inerrantists and dogmatists never do.

Edited by Ringo, : spelling

Message 230 of 300 (327678) 06-30-2006 4:34 AM

Reply to: Message 229 by ringo 06-30-2006 4:23 AM

That's not what the scriptures say.

He could have TOLD us without dying. Silly idea. He could have spent a long fruitful life preaching the forgiveness of sins if he didn't have to die to pay for them.

Aargh, jar is now cloning himself?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Message 231 of 300 (327679) 06-30-2006 4:38 AM

Reply to: Message 230 by Faith 06-30-2006 4:34 AM

Of course He could have.

But He chose to become a man. That's why He had to die - not to "pay Himself".

He died because He was a man.

Message 232 of 300 (327690) 06-30-2006 6:37 AM

Reply to: Message 231 by ringo 06-30-2006 4:38 AM

Sez who? Certainly not scripture. A sinless man is immortal. Not even considering the fact that he is also God, just as a sinless Man he was immortal. Scripture makes it plain that he was sinless and did not have to die at all because he was sinless, but CHOSE to die for our sake.

quote:

---

John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

---

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Message 233 of 300 (327721) 06-30-2006 9:45 AM

Reply to: Message 230 by Faith 06-30-2006 4:34 AM

He did tell us and He could have had a long and productive life teaching us, and He didn't have to die for our sins.

But once born He would have died, either from old age or illness or accident or as happened, the fear of His message.

The idea that GOD needs some kind of payment from us is IMHO ludicrous. What can we possibly give GOD beyond just trying to live a good life? Only GOD can forgive, and it's not some commercial transaction.

There is no price to be paid.

That does not mean there was no sacrifice. GOD becoming Man, frail, subject to illness, knowing sorrow and pain and doubt and temptation, knowing that there is death even if there is a belief in ressurection, not knowing if temptation can be resisted, being misunderstood, hated, feared, all of those things that define MAN, was a Great Sacrifice.

All of those things GOD did, to teach us, to show us, to help us.

Jesus died.

Jesus rose from the dead.

Jesus walked with His friends.

Jesus ascended into heaven.

What greater demonstration of the truth of GOD's message could be imagined?

Message 234 of 300 (327738) 06-30-2006 10:46 AM

Reply to: Message 211 by lfen 06-29-2006 4:42 PM

Gut feeling tells me that there is some sort of illogic going on in there but it is too contorted for me to unravel

My own view is that God is the person who makes a person a Christian. And he never unmakes one. Being a Roman Catholic doesn't make you a Christian any more than being anything else does. Nor does being a Roman Catholic stop you from being made a Christian by God.

Denominations have nothing to do with it directly.

Message 236 of 300 (327741) 06-30-2006 11:00 AM

Reply to: Message 229 by ringo 06-30-2006 4:23 AM

Also, lets consider a couple of scriptures, (perhaps not in context, but oh well....)

1) Matt 26:39-- Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." There is something about the argument concerning behavior that I have not yet settled. Whose will does and/or should operate in our lives? Our will or Gods will?

2) Phil 2:12-13-- Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

I suppose that my point is this: IF

1) We become the decisions that we make....and are responsible for our own decisions, is it possible to allow Gods Spirit....His will...to reside within us and through the communion of our relationship with Him, allow Him to work in us to will and to act? (according to His good purpose) In other words, it is no longer I who live but Christ living through me....

Now, we know that humans are human and that such a scenario is and has been fraught with uncertainty...(hence the idea of a spiritual war of sorts throughout history).

I also know that some of you common sense minded folk consider it ludicrous that Gods Spirit is living and active.

Im not sure what you think, Ringo...but as for me, I believe that most, if not all of my better actions were His Spirit in me working and acting according to His good pleasure. My behavior was top notch only because I had let go of my ego, will, and intellect enough to allow God to get the job done.

Message 237 of 300 (327743) 06-30-2006 11:03 AM

Reply to: Message 233 by jar 06-30-2006 9:45 AM

If Christ could and did surrender His will to the Father, perhaps that is the message of His teaching that we also need do.

Message 238 of 300 (327755) 06-30-2006 12:08 PM

Reply to: Message 237 by Phat 06-30-2006 11:03 AM

Where have I said anything like that?

GOD gave us the gift of knowing right from wrong. GOD charged us to try to do right, to try not to do wrong, to be honest with ourselves and when we do screw up, acknowledge it and try to do better in the future.

Message 239 of 300 (327757) 06-30-2006 12:27 PM

Reply to: Message 236 by Phat 06-30-2006 11:00 AM

Y'know, I don't even like to call them "beliefs". It's not the "I do, I do, I do believe in spooks!" that we hear so often from professing Christians. It's more like a way of looking at things.

I'm not completely convinced that Jesus was ever alive, but it doesn't matter. If God came down to earth as an incarnation 2000 years ago, then no, that incarnation would not exist today. That's not to say the "Jesus aspect" of God isn't still a part of God, but Jesus is not "alive" today in the biological sense of the word "alive".

If God gave us "free will", then it is our will that should operate in our lives. God's commandments are for our benefit, not His. He has no "will" for us, other than that we be happy.

No offense, but I would call that meaningless mumbo-jumbo. God gave us brains and He expects us to use them, not be obedient automatons. Christ lives "through us" in the sense that He was our Teacher and our Example. He was not our autopilot.

quote:

---

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

---

God's spirit is in all of us, from our "creation". The knowledge of good and evil is in all of us. Our better actions are the result of those two features of our "design" - not of a hands-on day-to-day "driver".

Quite frankly, your attitude sounds like an excuse: if we don't "do the right thing", it's because God didn't motivate us. We are responsible for what we do and we are also responsible for what we should do, but don't.

I'm glad your behaviour is "top-notch". ;) Some of us only aspire to "adequate".

Why do you think God gave you a will if He wants you to let go of it? Do you think God wants you to let go of your hands or your feet and be His puppet?

Why not try to channel your will in constructive directions instead?

The idea of letting go of your intellect is so horrifying that I'm not even going to go there.

Message 240 of 300 (327758) 06-30-2006 12:36 PM

Reply to: Message 232 by Faith 06-30-2006 6:37 AM

Jesus was not immortal. He died.

He chose to become mortal for our sake. He chose neither the time nor the means of His death.

quote:

---

John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

---

Laying down one's life means devoting one's life, or even risking one's life, not losing it.